Errors in moral reasoning

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
haithabu
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by haithabu »

Bootstrap wrote: I agree that it is also important to report on Antifa. It's the wrong response to white nationalism.

But to say that with authority, I think it's really helpful to say, quite loudly, that we find white nationalism just as repugnant as they do.

The very suggestion that there is a perceived need for someone like myself to say something like that quite loudly is is a sore point for me because it implicitly accepts the imputation of white supremacism and racism against conservatives which is a frequent slander from the left.

I find it as offensive as any virtuous girl might if she were asked to declare her virginity "quite loudly". You know, just to remove any doubt in the matter.
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Szdfan
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Szdfan »

haithabu wrote:The very suggestion that there is a perceived need for someone like myself to say something like that quite loudly is is a sore point for me because it implicitly accepts the imputation of white supremacism and racism against conservatives which is a frequent slander from the left.
But that's exactly the issue in the case of Trump. It's not clear how opposed he is to white supremacy because of this own words, the connections in his administration (i.e. Bannon and Gorsuch) with the so-called "alt-right") and as Boot pointed out, the positive response by white supremacists to Trump's initial comments.

Trump frequently appealed to "white resentment" during the campaign and there is evidence that neo-Nazis and the KKK felt emboldened by Trump's election. These protests in Charlottesville were the largest white supremacist protests in decades. From my side of the fence, it appears that many of the fringe elements that William Buckley purged from mainstream conservatism in the 1960's have re-emerged in the Republican Party.

A "it balances it out" argument doesn't take into account the history of KKK and Nazism does appear to create a moral equivalency. At this moment, I do think conservatives have to be super clear about their opposition, because when the president describes the white supremacist side as having "fine folks," it raises a lot of questions.
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haithabu
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by haithabu »

Szdfan wrote:
haithabu wrote:The very suggestion that there is a perceived need for someone like myself to say something like that quite loudly is is a sore point for me because it implicitly accepts the imputation of white supremacism and racism against conservatives which is a frequent slander from the left.
But that's exactly the issue in the case of Trump. It's not clear how opposed he is to white supremacy because of this own words, the connections in his administration (i.e. Bannon and Gorsuch) with the so-called "alt-right") and as Boot pointed out, the positive response by white supremacists to Trump's initial comments.

Trump frequently appealed to "white resentment" during the campaign and there is evidence that neo-Nazis and the KKK felt emboldened by Trump's election. These protests in Charlottesville were the largest white supremacist protests in decades. From my side of the fence, it appears that many of the fringe elements that William Buckley purged from mainstream conservatism in the 1960's have re-emerged in the Republican Party.

A "it balances it out" argument doesn't take into account the history of KKK and Nazism does appear to create a moral equivalency. At this moment, I do think conservatives have to be super clear about their opposition, because when the president describes the white supremacist side as having "fine folks," it raises a lot of questions.
All that is true and I share your concerns about some of Trump's statements in the past. However, to return to my example of the girl being required to declare her virginity, if there is reason to doubt it in the first place, she is unlikely to be believed no matter what she says. And this indeed has been the case with Trump since he has unequivocally denounced white supremacist views in his statement and people still don't believe him. What stumbles people is his "and" in referencing the role of both parties in the violence itself.

People are reading into the addition a qualification of his denunciation, but it's not if you understand the issue of Nazi views and the violence itself as two separate things.

Or maybe it is that some want him to say that those views are the only thing that matters here while he is saying that something else matters as well. I happen to think that whatever Trump's hidden sympathies might be, he is objectively right on the merits of what he's saying.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Bootstrap »

haithabu wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I agree that it is also important to report on Antifa. It's the wrong response to white nationalism.

But to say that with authority, I think it's really helpful to say, quite loudly, that we find white nationalism just as repugnant as they do.
The very suggestion that there is a perceived need for someone like myself to say something like that quite loudly is is a sore point for me because it implicitly accepts the imputation of white supremacism and racism against conservatives which is a frequent slander from the left.
Honestly, I wasn't thinking of you as a conservative when I asked that question. I was just puzzled that this wasn't something you were saying much. Charlottesville is a place I go sometimes, it's not that far from me. People were scared by a group that staged a rally, inviting white supremacists from all over the country, with discussions on forums talking about shows of strength, bringing weapons, shields, and helmets, calling Jews and blacks things like "genetic refuse". That's a very scary, emotional event. It challenges the rule of law.

To me, there's a kind of "we're all in this together" that says everyone has a place, that it's horrible when people are threatened because they are Jewish or black. We need that. It's a little like hugging your wife even if she already knows you love her. I guess you don't have to prove that you don't have prove that you love her, that's assumed, but if you don't hug her, she probably wonders why. Or if someone you knew well dies, and you just won't say anything good about them. This kind of public event comes with a public ritual of support for the people who were threatened, telling them that it's unacceptable to threaten them like that.

Why should that be any different for conservatives?
haithabu wrote:I find it as offensive as any virtuous girl might if she were asked to declare her virginity "quite loudly". You know, just to remove any doubt in the matter.
Would you be offended if your wife expected a hug, or if someone were surprised that you had a block against speaking well of a friend who had died? Why is this any different?
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MaxPC
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by MaxPC »

haithabu wrote:I'm putting this under Current Events because it is highly pertinent to what is going on in American society right now.

Here are some common fallacies or errors I see people committing in assessing the right or wrong in various situations. This is not some theoretical philosophical discussion but I see them has having the potential to lead to real evil and disorder in society.

1) That moral responsibility is a zero sum game.

There is a tendency to interpret the criticism of one aspect of a position or action or event as a corresponding support for or justification for the other side. We see this repeated over and over in the near universal criticism of Trump's statements on Charlottesville. I myself just got my feathers singed on FB in trying to make what some others deemed to be inappropriate moral distinctions. But God judged Adam and Eve and the serpent separately for their respective sins without assigning any one credit for the contribution of others, and so He will each of us.

People who rely on the zero sum concept for self-justification are less likely to examine themselves for wrong actions and attitudes and are more likely to judge others harshly.

2) That passion is an index of virtue.

That your commitment to a value and therefore your virtue is measured by how vociferously and how intemperately you advocate for it. But I believe that moral reason is like a computer: it doesn't work properly over a certain temperature. In watching the storms of emotion rage through the body public today I am reminded of W.B. Yeats' words:
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Movements which elevate passion in moral, religious or political questions are more likely to be complacent about extreme actions by their members and even though the majority may be otherwise reasonable people, the more extreme members tend to set the direction for the rest because they are assigned the moral high ground within the movement and are thus given the capacity to shame the more moderate members into following them or at least not opposing them.

3) A failure to balance values - the idea that one value should be supreme over others.

I think of justice and mercy as values which are conceptually opposed. Justice means to give to someone what is due them for their wrong actions. Mercy means to refrain from doing so. Yet both are necessary and the moral task of humanity under God is to balance the two. An exclusive focus on one over the other leads to objectively evil outcomes.

The same thing applies to human rights codes. A code contains a laundry list of rights and they are all listed co-equally, but there are various situations where different rights come into conflict. It is the job of courts to balance them in an equitable way. If the court were to privilege one right absolutely over another, the second right would be on its way to being nullified or marginalized.

4) ...and that therefore the end justifies the means.

If one value or cause reigns supreme in the moral universe, then petty considerations of reason, truth, integrity, fairness, compassion or legality may be subordinated to that pursuit. Stalin or Lenin are variously reported to have said "You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs". The irony in their case is that though millions of eggs were broken, the omelette never arrived.

The problem with this thinking occurs on several levels:

a) The supreme Good that is pursued in the case of a utopian or millenarian or morally perfectionistic movement never arrives. It is either unattainable or the movement moves on in pursuit of ever higher levels of purity. In the end the movement breaks down and its adherents find that they have committed real evil in exchange for an illusionary good.

b) It degrades the person morally. He may persuade himself that these tactics are necessary to achieve his Good, but in the end he becomes his tactics or he becomes what he habitually does.

c) It is immoral (I would say wicked) because the practitioner of these tactics in effect is penalizing his opponents for their virtues. The pushing aside of certain values may give the activist a momentary advantage over his opponents - but only because they are not doing the same themselves. So someone who is committed to telling only the truth is punished for that because no matter what the truth is, the liar can tell a better story.

d) Which leads to the moral degradation of society as those depreciated values go out the window on all sides. Some may think of this as a temporary price to pay on the way to victory, but a society which loses the values of truth, integrity, fairness, civility, social peace and tolerance will not quickly recover them. A generation after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia still struggles to recover the freedoms and rule of law which were denied to it by the Bolsheviks.

5) Moral supremacism - the temptation to think that there is no wisdom or virtue or good faith on the other side of an issue.

Another word for it might be moral narcissism, only this is a narcissism which takes place on a collective level rather than just on an individual level.

This attitude makes its holders correction proof. It impedes their goals by creating unnecessary conflict and resistance to their ideas. Any movement which runs on this basis finds itself splitting into factions over time because its adherents will apply the same intolerance for dissent toward each other as they do toward people outside the movement.

I wrote in another post about "gratuitous hatred" which according to the Talmud was the cause for the destruction of the Jewish nation. The rabbis go on to say that this mutual hatred between Jews took the form of various faction disputing, then fighting, then hunting each others' members down over the question of who was the better Jew. Isn't this what is happening today? That Americans are starting look at each other with fear and loathing over the matter of who is the "better Jew". Or more accurately, who is the better white American.

6) Language abuse to muddy the water. Strictly speaking these are not usually errors but deliberate strategy. But for those who are taken in by them it does lead to errors in moral reasoning.

One is the use of constructive language to describe values, so that terms like "love", "Justice" and "tolerance" are used with special ideologically constructed meanings which are different from, and in some cases opposed to their common everyday meaning. This is wrong because unless those special definitions are made explicit they are deceiving to ordinary folk. They are often used manipulatively to put opponents into a false position where because they oppose the specific application which is being advocated, they are portrayed as being against the value altogether.

Related to that is the use of baggage filled cant phrases to express a position without actually reasoning it out or fitting it to the circumstances. "Person of color" is one such. It immediately invokes a narrative of oppressor and oppressed which is intended to produce a certain reflexive response to any situation where it is applied.

Both of these practices are described in detail by George Orwell under the heading of "Newspeak".

7) Outsourcing moral reasoning to others.

The idea than a group as a whole has a truer moral instinct than any individual in it is based in part on the idea of the wisdom of crowds. However studies where this has been tested for quantifiable matters (the only way this theory can really be tested) have shown that the principle only works when people reach their own conclusions individually without referring to others. So I suggest that the path to collective moral wisdom always runs through each individual's own moral compass.

When people look to the group itself as the ultimate moral arbiter, then its "wisdom" becomes an artifact of the views of its more dominant or vocal members and the benefit of collective wisdom is lost. In some cases, a relatively small but cohesive and coordinated vocal faction can create an apparent consensus where there is none and lead the group in a direction where most of its members in fact do not want to go.

Part of this view is rooted in my personal experience. As someone who was a socially awkward outsider, I learned in middle school that the group was not to be trusted; that individuals who were quite civil one on one could become publicly cruel while in the group setting. If the people I knew while growing up were at their worst in the group, why should I look to the group for my moral cues?

And looking at recent history: those who stood against Hitler (since everyone is talking about Hitler nowadays) did so in spite of, not because of the apparent social consensus around them. Those who went along did so because they did not trust their own moral instincts over the apparent values of their neighbours.
This is a first rate analysis, Haithabu. :up:
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Bootstrap »

haithabu wrote:I find it as offensive as any virtuous girl might if she were asked to declare her virginity "quite loudly". You know, just to remove any doubt in the matter.
I don't think anyone is saying they slept with you. But there are a lot of white supremacists, KKK, and Nazis out there who are telling everyone they share a bed with Donald Trump - that they helped elect him and are some of his most important supporters, that their program is his program.

Sure would be nice to hear him say he wants nothing to do with them. Clearly. Without equivocating. Without saying something different the next day.
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MaxPC
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by MaxPC »

Internet hiccupped before I could finish my post. Haithabu, this is a first rate analysis. It is straightforward, clear, and free of the relativistic verbal gymnastics used by those who twist logic to push an agenda. Well done!
MaxPC wrote:
haithabu wrote:I'm putting this under Current Events because it is highly pertinent to what is going on in American society right now.

Here are some common fallacies or errors I see people committing in assessing the right or wrong in various situations. This is not some theoretical philosophical discussion but I see them has having the potential to lead to real evil and disorder in society.

1) That moral responsibility is a zero sum game.

There is a tendency to interpret the criticism of one aspect of a position or action or event as a corresponding support for or justification for the other side. We see this repeated over and over in the near universal criticism of Trump's statements on Charlottesville. I myself just got my feathers singed on FB in trying to make what some others deemed to be inappropriate moral distinctions. But God judged Adam and Eve and the serpent separately for their respective sins without assigning any one credit for the contribution of others, and so He will each of us.

People who rely on the zero sum concept for self-justification are less likely to examine themselves for wrong actions and attitudes and are more likely to judge others harshly.

2) That passion is an index of virtue.

That your commitment to a value and therefore your virtue is measured by how vociferously and how intemperately you advocate for it. But I believe that moral reason is like a computer: it doesn't work properly over a certain temperature. In watching the storms of emotion rage through the body public today I am reminded of W.B. Yeats' words:
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Movements which elevate passion in moral, religious or political questions are more likely to be complacent about extreme actions by their members and even though the majority may be otherwise reasonable people, the more extreme members tend to set the direction for the rest because they are assigned the moral high ground within the movement and are thus given the capacity to shame the more moderate members into following them or at least not opposing them.

3) A failure to balance values - the idea that one value should be supreme over others.

I think of justice and mercy as values which are conceptually opposed. Justice means to give to someone what is due them for their wrong actions. Mercy means to refrain from doing so. Yet both are necessary and the moral task of humanity under God is to balance the two. An exclusive focus on one over the other leads to objectively evil outcomes.

The same thing applies to human rights codes. A code contains a laundry list of rights and they are all listed co-equally, but there are various situations where different rights come into conflict. It is the job of courts to balance them in an equitable way. If the court were to privilege one right absolutely over another, the second right would be on its way to being nullified or marginalized.

4) ...and that therefore the end justifies the means.

If one value or cause reigns supreme in the moral universe, then petty considerations of reason, truth, integrity, fairness, compassion or legality may be subordinated to that pursuit. Stalin or Lenin are variously reported to have said "You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs". The irony in their case is that though millions of eggs were broken, the omelette never arrived.

The problem with this thinking occurs on several levels:

a) The supreme Good that is pursued in the case of a utopian or millenarian or morally perfectionistic movement never arrives. It is either unattainable or the movement moves on in pursuit of ever higher levels of purity. In the end the movement breaks down and its adherents find that they have committed real evil in exchange for an illusionary good.

b) It degrades the person morally. He may persuade himself that these tactics are necessary to achieve his Good, but in the end he becomes his tactics or he becomes what he habitually does.

c) It is immoral (I would say wicked) because the practitioner of these tactics in effect is penalizing his opponents for their virtues. The pushing aside of certain values may give the activist a momentary advantage over his opponents - but only because they are not doing the same themselves. So someone who is committed to telling only the truth is punished for that because no matter what the truth is, the liar can tell a better story.

d) Which leads to the moral degradation of society as those depreciated values go out the window on all sides. Some may think of this as a temporary price to pay on the way to victory, but a society which loses the values of truth, integrity, fairness, civility, social peace and tolerance will not quickly recover them. A generation after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia still struggles to recover the freedoms and rule of law which were denied to it by the Bolsheviks.

5) Moral supremacism - the temptation to think that there is no wisdom or virtue or good faith on the other side of an issue.

Another word for it might be moral narcissism, only this is a narcissism which takes place on a collective level rather than just on an individual level.

This attitude makes its holders correction proof. It impedes their goals by creating unnecessary conflict and resistance to their ideas. Any movement which runs on this basis finds itself splitting into factions over time because its adherents will apply the same intolerance for dissent toward each other as they do toward people outside the movement.

I wrote in another post about "gratuitous hatred" which according to the Talmud was the cause for the destruction of the Jewish nation. The rabbis go on to say that this mutual hatred between Jews took the form of various faction disputing, then fighting, then hunting each others' members down over the question of who was the better Jew. Isn't this what is happening today? That Americans are starting look at each other with fear and loathing over the matter of who is the "better Jew". Or more accurately, who is the better white American.

6) Language abuse to muddy the water. Strictly speaking these are not usually errors but deliberate strategy. But for those who are taken in by them it does lead to errors in moral reasoning.

One is the use of constructive language to describe values, so that terms like "love", "Justice" and "tolerance" are used with special ideologically constructed meanings which are different from, and in some cases opposed to their common everyday meaning. This is wrong because unless those special definitions are made explicit they are deceiving to ordinary folk. They are often used manipulatively to put opponents into a false position where because they oppose the specific application which is being advocated, they are portrayed as being against the value altogether.

Related to that is the use of baggage filled cant phrases to express a position without actually reasoning it out or fitting it to the circumstances. "Person of color" is one such. It immediately invokes a narrative of oppressor and oppressed which is intended to produce a certain reflexive response to any situation where it is applied.

Both of these practices are described in detail by George Orwell under the heading of "Newspeak".

7) Outsourcing moral reasoning to others.

The idea than a group as a whole has a truer moral instinct than any individual in it is based in part on the idea of the wisdom of crowds. However studies where this has been tested for quantifiable matters (the only way this theory can really be tested) have shown that the principle only works when people reach their own conclusions individually without referring to others. So I suggest that the path to collective moral wisdom always runs through each individual's own moral compass.

When people look to the group itself as the ultimate moral arbiter, then its "wisdom" becomes an artifact of the views of its more dominant or vocal members and the benefit of collective wisdom is lost. In some cases, a relatively small but cohesive and coordinated vocal faction can create an apparent consensus where there is none and lead the group in a direction where most of its members in fact do not want to go.

Part of this view is rooted in my personal experience. As someone who was a socially awkward outsider, I learned in middle school that the group was not to be trusted; that individuals who were quite civil one on one could become publicly cruel while in the group setting. If the people I knew while growing up were at their worst in the group, why should I look to the group for my moral cues?

And looking at recent history: those who stood against Hitler (since everyone is talking about Hitler nowadays) did so in spite of, not because of the apparent social consensus around them. Those who went along did so because they did not trust their own moral instincts over the apparent values of their neighbours.
This is a first rate analysis, Haithabu. :up:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Bootstrap »

Swastikas, torches, shields, guns, helmets - these symbols are chosen to terrify people.

I agree that fighting back is bad. But something important is getting lost in the need to protect political turf. Empathy. Compassion. I agree that fighting back is the wrong response, but the right response surely includes real compassion for the people they wanted to terrorize. Can't we freely express that?
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haithabu
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by haithabu »

Thanks for attempting to focus this thread on the original post, Max. I hope you succeed. :)
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Re: Errors in moral reasoning

Post by Bootstrap »

haithabu wrote:Thanks for attempting to focus this thread on the original post, Max. I hope you succeed. :)
My responses have largely been based on this:
haithabu wrote:1) That moral responsibility is a zero sum game.

There is a tendency to interpret the criticism of one aspect of a position or action or event as a corresponding support for or justification for the other side. We see this repeated over and over in the near universal criticism of Trump's statements on Charlottesville.
Do you know the term Whataboutism?
Whataboutism is a propaganda technique formerly used by the Soviet Union in its dealings with the Western world, and subsequently used as a form of propaganda in post-Soviet Russia. When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.
It's an error in moral reasoning. To take the focus off of a horrible wrong, it points at another moral wrong and tries to change the subject. It's the opposite of looking seriously at both sets of sins, it turns into a race to the bottom where each side feels justified because the other side's sins are worse.

Swastikas, torches, shields, guns, helmets - these symbols are chosen to terrify people. What do you say to the Jews and the blacks living in Charlottesville? Certainly not that there were some "very fine people" on both sides. I think Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professor Denny Burk got this right:
President Trump addressed the nation in a press conference in which he said that the white supremacist protestors were “very fine people.” His full remarks were more than disappointing. They were morally bankrupt and completely unacceptable. People who protest while chanting Nazi slogans are not “very fine people.”
Or as David French put it:
When Trump carves them away from the Nazis and distinguishes them from the neo-Confederates, he’s doing exactly what they want. He’s making them respectable. He’s making them different. But “very fine people” don’t march with tiki torches chanting “blood and soil” or “Jews will not replace us.” The Charlottesville rally was a specific “unite the right” rally that sought to bind the alt-right together with all these other groups. The alt-right wants it both ways. They want the strength in numbers of the larger fascist right while also enjoying the credibility granted them by Breitbart, Steve Bannon, Milo, and — today — the president of the United States.
That's not balance. That's an "error in moral reasoning".

And if you are a black or a Jew living in Charlottesville, what does this say to you?
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