White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Bootstrap
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:52 pm

Robert wrote:When I consider his wording from the DC shooting and the wording on Saturday about this rally, I see some continuity. What I also see is polarized ears hearing certain things and ignoring other things.


Actually, most of the mainstream right seems to be hearing the same thing I am. So do the white supremacists. And an awful lot of people on the left are hearing this. This seems to be one thing that crosses many political divides.

But I'm repeating myself. Obviously, not everyone is hearing Donald Trump's comments the way I am. That puzzles me. That doesn't make you a white supremacist. This may be one area where we just have a hard time hearing each other.
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PeterG
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby PeterG » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:57 pm

Robert wrote:
PeterG wrote:I don't think either side should be elevated, but one side should be criticized more than the other. Yes, both sides should be rejected, but one of the sides gives us more reasons to reject it.


Did you say the same when the Congressmen were shot in DC last month? I can find no posts condemning his actions.

I don't think I've ever said anything about that incident. But since you've brought it up, the shooter is worthy of greater criticism than the congressmen, to say the least.

Robert wrote:Now, would you be kind enough to answer those same questions.

It pains me a great deal to say it, but I would have preferred it if Clinton had won the election. (I didn't vote, and I'm not the least bit sorry.) ISIS is worse than the Kurds, and the Nazis were worse than the French Resistance.

Robert wrote:I really do not see how they really equate to the just war belief.

Neither do I, and that's exactly the point. :) We can criticize the Charlottesville protesters more than the counterprotesters without resorting to a just war view.
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Robert
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Robert » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:00 pm

PeterG wrote:Neither do I, and that's exactly the point. :) We can criticize the Charlottesville protesters more than the counterprotesters without resorting to a just war view.


When we rationalize one side's actions as being more righteous than the other, we start down that path.
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haithabu
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby haithabu » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:28 pm

PeterG wrote:
haithabu wrote:
PeterG wrote:

We give them room to make that assumption when our rhetoric emphasizes the latter at the expense of the former. If we're going to address these issues at all, it is incumbent upon us to leave no doubt by, for example, speaking of each side's violence according to its perpetration and each side's error according to its adherence. Speak according to reality, not according to what others are leaving unsaid.


It is incumbent to us to listen to each other carefully and to ask questions if we are in doubt as to someone's views.

So evidently you think that the neo-Nazis are the main threat while the Antifa tactics are incidental, boys will be boys but their heart is in the right place?

I myself see the ongoing toleration of the Antifa use of political violence and intimidation as more socially dangerous than the neo-Nazis, because the neo-Nazis don't enjoy any significant social license in today's America but the Antifa do.
Antifa has not only attacked white supremacists in the past, but they routinely assault anyone they associate with Trump. I predict that now they will be even more aggressive than before because they are not being held to account and there is active resistance to holding them to account in this most recent case by people using zero sum arguments.
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PeterG
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby PeterG » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:47 pm

haithabu wrote:So evidently you think that the neo-Nazis are the main threat while the Antifa tactics are incidental, boys will be boys but their heart is in the right place?

What would make you think that this is my view?
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haithabu
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby haithabu » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:23 pm

PeterG wrote:
haithabu wrote:So evidently you think that the neo-Nazis are the main threat while the Antifa tactics are incidental, boys will be boys but their heart is in the right place?

What would make you think that this is my view?


I'm checking to see if it is.
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Robert
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Robert » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:18 pm

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Valerie
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Valerie » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:08 pm

I hope this message is taken to heart by the laity:

OCA Issues statement (Orthodox Church of America)
August 16, 2017
To the Clergy, Monastics and Faithful of the Orthodox Church in America,
Recent tragic events in Charlottesville, Virginia, have highlighted the presence of un-Christian rhetoric and violent actions within our communities. At the same time, the response to these events by our civil leadership has unleashed a nationwide debate which has created a certain moral ambiguity, which in turn is fostering further division. Such a climate requires a clear response from the Church.
The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America joins people of faith and good will across the United States, Canada and Mexico in unequivocally, unreservedly and unambiguously rejecting words and actions which perpetrate, support or encourage hatred, violence, racism, white supremacy, white nationalism or neo-Nazism. As Orthodox Christians, we believe that every human being is a child of God, created in His image and likeness, and therefore we are all brothers and sisters whatever our race, nationality or creed.
At the same time, we also reject the climate of condemnation of the individuals carrying out these heinous activities. Indeed, Jesus rebuked his disciples when they suggested that he violently retaliate against his enemies. “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” (Luke 9:55-56). The Church offers to all—without exception—not condemnation but a path to forgiveness and peace in Christ.
As the Orthodox prayer of confession says: “O Lord God, the Salvation of Thy servants, gracious, bountiful and long-suffering, who forgives us concerning our evil deeds, and desires not the death of a sinner, but rather that he should turn from his way and live: Show Thy mercy upon Thy servants and grant unto them an image of repentance, forgiveness of sins, and deliverance, pardoning their every transgression, whether voluntary or involuntary…”
We reject hatred and violence, and as Orthodox Christians we are also committed to the ministry of reconciliation. We encourage our clergy and faithful to hold fast to the Christian message of healing, salvation and love offered by Christ, who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. At the same time, we exhort our clergy and faithful to reject any attempts by individuals or groups to claim for themselves the name of “Orthodox Christian” in order to promote racism, hatred, white supremacy, white nationalism or neo-Nazism. This is in keeping with the Holy Gospels, the decisions of the Holy Councils and the experience of the Saints.
We remind the faithful that the Orthodox Church in America does not restrict membership to those of a particular race or nationality and has historically welcomed all, going back to the Alaskan Mission which embraced the indigenous peoples of that land and continuing to this day in the multicultural and multi-ethnic context of North America.
Brothers and sisters, Saint Justin Martyr, writing at a time when Christians were persecuted in the second century, said, “We used to hate and destroy one another and refused to associate with people of another race or country. Now, because of Christ, we live together with such people and pray for our enemies.” May that same spirit be ours today as well.
With our paternal love and blessings,
The Most Blessed TIKHON, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada
The Most Reverend NATHANIEL, Archbishop of Detroit and the Romanian Episcopate
The Most Reverend NIKON, Archbishop of Boston, New England and the Albanian Archdiocese
The Most Reverend BENJAMIN, Archbishop of San Francisco, and the Diocese of the West
The Most Reverend ALEJO, Archbishop of Mexico City and the Diocese of Mexico
The Most Reverend MELCHISEDEK, Archbishop of Pittsburgh and the Diocese of Western Pennsylvania
The Most Reverend MARK, Archbishop of Philadelphia and the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania
The Most Reverend IRÉNÉE, Archbishop of Ottawa and the Archdiocese of Canada
The Most Reverend MICHAEL, Archbishop of New York and the Diocese of New York and New Jersey
The Most Reverend ALEXANDER, Archbishop of Toledo, Dallas, the South and the Bulgarian Diocese
The Right Reverend DAVID, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska
The Right Reverend PAUL, Bishop of Chicago and the Midwest
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Sudsy
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Sudsy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:30 pm

Valerie wrote:I hope this message is taken to heart by the laity:

OCA Issues statement (Orthodox Church of America)
August 16, 2017
To the Clergy, Monastics and Faithful of the Orthodox Church in America,
Recent tragic events in Charlottesville, Virginia, have highlighted the presence of un-Christian rhetoric and violent actions within our communities. At the same time, the response to these events by our civil leadership has unleashed a nationwide debate which has created a certain moral ambiguity, which in turn is fostering further division. Such a climate requires a clear response from the Church.
The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America joins people of faith and good will across the United States, Canada and Mexico in unequivocally, unreservedly and unambiguously rejecting words and actions which perpetrate, support or encourage hatred, violence, racism, white supremacy, white nationalism or neo-Nazism. As Orthodox Christians, we believe that every human being is a child of God, created in His image and likeness, and therefore we are all brothers and sisters whatever our race, nationality or creed.
At the same time, we also reject the climate of condemnation of the individuals carrying out these heinous activities. Indeed, Jesus rebuked his disciples when they suggested that he violently retaliate against his enemies. “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” (Luke 9:55-56). The Church offers to all—without exception—not condemnation but a path to forgiveness and peace in Christ.
As the Orthodox prayer of confession says: “O Lord God, the Salvation of Thy servants, gracious, bountiful and long-suffering, who forgives us concerning our evil deeds, and desires not the death of a sinner, but rather that he should turn from his way and live: Show Thy mercy upon Thy servants and grant unto them an image of repentance, forgiveness of sins, and deliverance, pardoning their every transgression, whether voluntary or involuntary…”

We reject hatred and violence, and as Orthodox Christians we are also committed to the ministry of reconciliation. We encourage our clergy and faithful to hold fast to the Christian message of healing, salvation and love offered by Christ, who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. At the same time, we exhort our clergy and faithful to reject any attempts by individuals or groups to claim for themselves the name of “Orthodox Christian” in order to promote racism, hatred, white supremacy, white nationalism or neo-Nazism. This is in keeping with the Holy Gospels, the decisions of the Holy Councils and the experience of the Saints.
We remind the faithful that the Orthodox Church in America does not restrict membership to those of a particular race or nationality and has historically welcomed all, going back to the Alaskan Mission which embraced the indigenous peoples of that land and continuing to this day in the multicultural and multi-ethnic context of North America.
Brothers and sisters, Saint Justin Martyr, writing at a time when Christians were persecuted in the second century, said, “We used to hate and destroy one another and refused to associate with people of another race or country. Now, because of Christ, we live together with such people and pray for our enemies.” May that same spirit be ours today as well.
With our paternal love and blessings,
The Most Blessed TIKHON, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada
The Most Reverend NATHANIEL, Archbishop of Detroit and the Romanian Episcopate
The Most Reverend NIKON, Archbishop of Boston, New England and the Albanian Archdiocese
The Most Reverend BENJAMIN, Archbishop of San Francisco, and the Diocese of the West
The Most Reverend ALEJO, Archbishop of Mexico City and the Diocese of Mexico
The Most Reverend MELCHISEDEK, Archbishop of Pittsburgh and the Diocese of Western Pennsylvania
The Most Reverend MARK, Archbishop of Philadelphia and the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania
The Most Reverend IRÉNÉE, Archbishop of Ottawa and the Archdiocese of Canada
The Most Reverend MICHAEL, Archbishop of New York and the Diocese of New York and New Jersey
The Most Reverend ALEXANDER, Archbishop of Toledo, Dallas, the South and the Bulgarian Diocese
The Right Reverend DAVID, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska
The Right Reverend PAUL, Bishop of Chicago and the Midwest


I especially agree with what I made bold in this statement above. I don't think we look closely enough at what it means to love our enemies. I may be an enemy to someone else but I am not to have another as an enemy (and that is why I disagree with a forum 'foe' feature). Our enemy is not in the form of flesh and blood but rather in the spirit realm and our own fleshly nature. I see continued condemnation given to Trump by the media but as believers that is not how we are to view Donald regardless of what Donald says or does. Both the condemners and those being condemned need Jesus and little is being said on how we truly love them in a way that presents Jesus as the answer.

Just showing some sort of unity around a common view of morality and being all one in God's eyes is not enough as I have seen these actions before where Jesus really doesn't even get mentioned. The whole concept of a 'quiet witness' is not scriptural. We are to 'proclaim' the Gospel and in so doing we will have enemies, Jesus said we will. I think we need more conversation on how we present to the world what this Orthodox statement is saying. Prayer is one part of it but another vital part is pointing others to Christ through both words and deeds. When I think about loving my enemy to not share what Jesus did to give us eternal life is really not showing them much love. Their eternal destiny should be of most importance.

I appreciate this statement by the Orthodox church referring to Jesus and it once again convicts me about what I believe in this area versus what I am actually in loving those who see me as an enemy. Actually, if I am not sharing Jesus, few will see me as an enemy. The Gospel is what is offensive as it exposes man's sin.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby KingdomBuilder » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:43 pm

Loosely related-
has anyone seen this image circling about? I have since the recent removal of the ole statues.

Image

Makes me absolutely sick. Nothing's really angered me throughout all the fuss and huss I've seen, but this surely does.
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