White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Robert
Site Janitor
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Robert » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:36 pm

PeterG wrote:To be clear, most of my students have not held such opinions. But this type of thinking has been represented among a noticable minority.


I have heard similar about Bush and now Trump. There will always be the extremes. Young students often are very black and white in thinking and it is up to educators to help them learn that few things in life are so black and white. I love to talk to someone who has such opinions, yet is open to hearing a response. That is where true growth happens.
0 x
I think I am funnier than I really am.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

MaxPC
Posts: 1636
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Full time RVers
Affiliation: Catholic
Contact:

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby MaxPC » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:50 pm

RZehr wrote:
Szdfan wrote:One of the things that has bothered me is seeing individual with "ethnic Mennonite" last names overtly espouse on social media white supremacist viewpoints. The poison and cancer of racism is not just outside the Christian Church, it's also inside the church as well.


I don't really care as much about their last name, as much as I do about what they profess to believe; who (or what church or church group) they are claiming to be affiliated with. I don't feel as bothered by someone agreeing Nazi viewpoints with a Yoder or Schrock name, as long as the rest of their life matches that viewpoint.
I do feel bothered a lot if it was someone that belongs to a church that I respect, even thought their last name might be Castro, or Hernandez.

Szdfan wrote:What do we do with fellow Christians who are white supremacists or at least agree with them?


The same as we do with fellow Christians* who are gay or at least agree with them.

Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Matthew 12:46-50

*professing Christians. Bunny trail potential.


:up: and Amen. I don't think anger is the right emotional response personally. Angered people vs angry people becomes the soil for growing and escalating conflicts into all out wars. I feel sadness and grief for the confused souls who make politics their god and insist that everyone else subscribe to the same political viewpoint be it liberal or conservative, iconoclastic or nationalist. When others disagree with them they become violent and to be clear, the violence has been committed by both liberals and conservatives.

It begs the question about fascism. One of the definitions of fascism is:
a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control. We've seen this enacted in both liberal and conservative parties. At one point does an antifascist become a fascist? When they refuse to allow all free speech regardless of content?
0 x
Max (aka Plain Catholic)
Psalm 105

PeterG
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby PeterG » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:20 pm

RZehr wrote:Where are your students getting these ideas? Reading to much news magazines?

Some of them consume very little media related to news or politics. I think it's mostly due to a persistent right-wing bias—right-wing investment, even—among their parents, ministers, and other authority figures. That's the lens through which these students view current events. It's not surprising that some young people take these views to extremes. We need to understand that right-wing biases are at least as dangerous as left-wing biases; I believe they're actually more dangerous because they're more attractive to us conservative Anabaptists. As I said, I can't recall a single instance of a Mennonite student expressing left-wing views in well over a decade of teaching (although I know this would be very different among other types of Mennonites).
1 x

PeterG
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby PeterG » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:07 pm

haithabu wrote:
PeterG wrote:
We can find plenty of reasons to criticize the Charlottesville counterprotesters, particularly from an Anabaptist perspective, but virtually all of those criticisms apply at least equally, and perhaps much more, to the original protesters, who have several additional objectionable characteristics. If you're going to comment on the events of last Saturday and criticize anyone, I don't understand how you can not be clearly more critical of the protesters than of the counterprotesters. It's like criticizing the French Resistance more than the Nazis, or the Kurds more than ISIS.


I think we can and should distinguish between moral issues in assessing a complicated event like Charlottesville.

I think that's all I'm advocating.

haithabu wrote:One issue is the general violence between the sides; another is the hit and run and another is the views of the WN groups themselves.

This is an oversimplification, but as you said: On one side, general violence. On the other side, general violence and a hit-and-run and white nationalist views. If we're going to dispassionately address what's right and what's wrong, our statements should be weighted accordingly.

haithabu wrote:It is possible to condemn those views and the hit and run and still say that both sides were equally responsible for the general violence. Saying the latter doesn't nullify the former and shouldn't seen as implicit support for or complacency toward those views. And yet many assume just that.

We give them room to make that assumption when our rhetoric emphasizes the latter at the expense of the former. If we're going to address these issues at all, it is incumbent upon us to leave no doubt by, for example, speaking of each side's violence according to its perpetration and each side's error according to its adherence. Speak according to reality, not according to what others are leaving unsaid.
0 x

PeterG
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby PeterG » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:25 pm

Robert wrote:
PeterG wrote:I don't understand how you can not be clearly more critical of the protesters than of the counterprotesters.


This is taking what I posted out of context and not what I said. I said I reject both sides. How does that elevate one over the other?

That's exactly the problem. I don't think either side should be elevated, but one side should be criticized more than the other. Yes, both sides should be rejected, but one of the sides gives us more reasons to reject it.

Robert wrote:Deciding one side was more righteous than the other is another way of accepting "just war."

It is not. For one thing, as I see it it's that one side is more unrighteous than the other. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you express a preference for Trump over Clinton, as much as you may have disliked Trump? Do you believe that ISIS is worse than the Kurds? Do you believe that the Nazis were worse than the French Resistance? If so, do these things make you a follower of the just war doctrine?
1 x

Bootstrap
Posts: 2302
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Kingdom Christian

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Bootstrap » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:30 pm

PeterG wrote:
haithabu wrote:One issue is the general violence between the sides; another is the hit and run and another is the views of the WN groups themselves.

This is an oversimplification, but as you said: On one side, general violence. On the other side, general violence and a hit-and-run and white nationalist views. If we're going to dispassionately address what's right and what's wrong, our statements should be weighted accordingly.

haithabu wrote:It is possible to condemn those views and the hit and run and still say that both sides were equally responsible for the general violence. Saying the latter doesn't nullify the former and shouldn't seen as implicit support for or complacency toward those views. And yet many assume just that.

We give them room to make that assumption when our rhetoric emphasizes the latter at the expense of the former. If we're going to address these issues at all, it is incumbent upon us to leave no doubt by, for example, speaking of each side's violence according to its perpetration and each side's error according to its adherence. Speak according to reality, not according to what others are leaving unsaid.


I agree with Peter.

If I some terrible sequence of events made me president of the United States, I would say something like this:

President Bootstrap wrote:We must not let white supremacists, the KKK, and neo-Nazis threaten American citizens, and we deplore anyone who teaches hatred for Jews and blacks. We are working together with the National Guard and local governments to make a plan to ensure that people are not threatened by rallies of this kind. And I ask people who organize this rally to stop using my name - I do not stand for what you stand for, and I do not want to be associated with you.

At the same time, our Constitution allows people to express their views, even views that I find repugnant. We need to make sure that people are safe and cannot be bullied by groups like this, but as long as they are peaceful and do not violate the law, they have the right to speak. Groups that combat them by violence play right into their hands, helping them build enmity and hate. We are a country that believes in the rule of law. Please, let the authorities handle this. We promise you that we will not let you down.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?

PeterG
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby PeterG » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:34 pm

Robert wrote:
PeterG wrote:To be clear, most of my students have not held such opinions. But this type of thinking has been represented among a noticable minority.


I have heard similar about Bush and now Trump. There will always be the extremes.

Certainly. I was just speaking from my experience among conservative Mennonite young people, and I've never heard any of them advocate violence against Bush or Trump. What I was saying applies strictly to the conservative Mennonite context, not to American society as a whole, about which I would have different things to say. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

Robert wrote:I love to talk to someone who has such opinions, yet is open to hearing a response. That is where true growth happens.

Yes, this is one of the great rewards of teaching. :)
0 x

PeterG
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby PeterG » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:35 pm

Bootstrap wrote:If I some terrible sequence of events made me president of the United States,

Yes, that would be terrible. :P
2 x

Robert
Site Janitor
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Robert » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:36 pm

PeterG wrote:I don't think either side should be elevated, but one side should be criticized more than the other. Yes, both sides should be rejected, but one of the sides gives us more reasons to reject it.


Did you say the same when the Congressmen were shot in DC last month? I can find no posts condemning his actions.

PeterG wrote:And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you express a preference for Trump over Clinton, as much as you may have disliked Trump?


I voted for neither. I was, and am, not sure either is the right person.

PeterG wrote:Do you believe that ISIS is worse than the Kurds?


I do not know enough about the Kurds or who they are to really make that judgement. I suspect ISIS is worse, but I really do not know.

PeterG wrote:Do you believe that the Nazis were worse than the French Resistance?


I think they were both wrong in their approaches, even though the reasons why they rose is understandable to me. Not saying I approve, but I think I understand the dynamics of what brought them. Just caught my wording and realized that this could be totally misunderstood from what I meant it to say. Just because I understand does mean I agree or support.

Now, would you be kind enough to answer those same questions. I really do not see how they really equate to the just war belief. Maybe explain that also.
0 x
I think I am funnier than I really am.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.

Robert
Site Janitor
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Robert » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:42 pm

Bootstrap wrote:If I some terrible sequence of events made me president of the United States, I would say something like this:

President Bootstrap wrote:
We must not let white supremacists, the KKK, and neo-Nazis threaten American citizens, and we deplore anyone who teaches hatred for Jews and blacks. We are working together with the National Guard and local governments to make a plan to ensure that people are not threatened by rallies of this kind. And I ask people who organize this rally to stop using my name - I do not stand for what you stand for, and I do not want to be associated with you.

At the same time, our Constitution allows people to express their views, even views that I find repugnant. We need to make sure that people are safe and cannot be bullied by groups like this, but as long as they are peaceful and do not violate the law, they have the right to speak. Groups that combat them by violence play right into their hands, helping them build enmity and hate. We are a country that believes in the rule of law. Please, let the authorities handle this. We promise you that we will not let you down.


I suspect I would have said something similar myself. I would not add that the Police acted stupidly or something like that. I could not see a President saying stupidly. That would just not fit well.

When I consider his wording from the DC shooting and the wording on Saturday about this rally, I see some continuity. What I also see is polarized ears hearing certain things and ignoring other things.
0 x
I think I am funnier than I really am.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.


Return to “Current Events and Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest