White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
joshuabgood
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby joshuabgood » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:35 pm

Regarding OP:

I agree. I have seen a number of FB posts that make me cringe. White supremacy is evil. It should be called that.

Josh
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Robert
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Robert » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:47 pm

joshuabgood wrote:Regarding OP:

I agree. I have seen a number of FB posts that make me cringe. White supremacy is evil. It should be called that.

Josh

Maybe one might consider who your friends are if you are seeing posts like that. I am connected to a lot of people all across the country and spectrum and am seeing none of this. Most, not all, of my friends are conservative leaning too. Maybe that is the difference.

Again, I would really like to see the text of some of these. Not concerned with the identity of the person. Just would like to see what they are saying.
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RZehr
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby RZehr » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:37 pm

To me, Charlottesville and Ferguson have similarities.
Both sets of people seemed misguided and are making terrible, unChristlike decisions - which are to be expected from unChristlike people. I hope that when pressed, we are able to acknowledge this.
I suppose some of our initial responses might influenced by the fact that we find more common ground with the Charlottesville troublemakers, than with the Ferguson troublemakers.

I can't really say I am angered by either group. Saddened, even disgusted, by their actions and arguments, yes.
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MaxPC
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby MaxPC » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:35 am

RZehr wrote:To me, Charlottesville and Ferguson have similarities.
Both sets of people seemed misguided and are making terrible, unChristlike decisions - which are to be expected from unChristlike people. I hope that when pressed, we are able to acknowledge this.
I suppose some of our initial responses might influenced by the fact that we find more common ground with the Charlottesville troublemakers, than with the Ferguson troublemakers.

I can't really say I am angered by either group. Saddened, even disgusted, by their actions and arguments, yes.

:clap: :up:
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Sudsy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:45 am

As to the leading question: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church ?

In the sense that Jesus could have a righteous anger over things that are not reflecting God's glory, I would agree. But in the sense, is Jesus angry with those who act out white supremacy views, I would say, 'no'. And I think the church should follow. When the 'churched' in His day wanted to stone an adulteress for her sinning, Jesus said to go ahead if you do not have any sin in your life yourself. He, then, not ignoring to address her sin, showed compassion on her, forgave her and sent her on her way with a fresh start.

So, to me, I can be angry about sin itself when it shows up yet love the sinner. There are many twisted ways of thinking in this world of sin and Jesus is the answer to getting our thinking back in line with God's. These folks fighting for white supremacy could be acting out of a fear mindset. They feel threatened that in the near future they will be a minority and could be trampled on. So, they give way to fear. What Christians bring to dispel fear is love. These troubled minds need love and the peace of God about the future. We are the messengers to explain how not to fear and how they need not be anxious about tomorrow when God is in charge. Faith is not about what we see but about what we can be confident is and will happen. This comes through knowing Christ.

If we don't do the hard stuff, like love our enemies and bless those who curse us, then we won't experience the power there is in love. 'Everyone needs compassion' as the hymn says. If we don't put loving first we could, in a short time, feel threatened by the growth of Islam and revert back to violence to put down that religion. They, too, need to be shown the love of Jesus. And that applies to how we treat gay relationships and all kinds of abnormal mindsets to what we understand the scriptures point to as sinful. Love covers a multitude of sins. As Jesus did, acknowledge we are all sinners in some way or other, and we sinners all need God's love to reach and change our hearts to be loving of others.

Hate (be angry) with sin itself but love the sinner.
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Robert
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Robert » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:48 am



I wonder about the assumption of the thread title. White supremacy angers Jesus. We can see that Jesus was not totally open to the Canaanite woman. She had to beg.

While I believe that the message of Jesus is for all, I struggle with the idea of placing it in the context of social justice.

I totally reject and dislike the message of the KKK, which was stated by the southern Democrats and supported by Woodrow Wilson, and the Neo-Nazis. I also reject and dislike the message of Black Lives Matter and many of the leftest organizations.

I can understand the offense of southern Civil War statues. I am offended by the statue of Poseidon in Goshen, IN Courthouse yard along with all the canons in public places. Some of my ancestors died fighting and canons were used. I am offended by the nationalistic furor and the nationalistic hate projected by many groups.

I am offended when I am told that, because I am "white", I am privileged. I was born in the slums of Baltimore. I did not grow up privileged. I grew up on the back of my father and his hard work and sacrifice for his family.

My point is that I would much rather be offended by all these things, then for their voices to be silenced. If their voices are silenced, then mine can too if I want to speak out against the government, military service, or even mainstream faith.

If the worse voices are allowed, then I know mine will be too. Words, although offensive, do not physically hurt. If they have the right to speak, then I know I do also.

What shut down the Klan in the 60's was MLK and his PEACEFUL movement. They found a way to speak without using violence and often not even using words. They stood up to the KKK and found the support of the country as they just used their words.

Those who protested against the WN groups in Charlottesville did so using violence. They came looking for a fight. They got exactly what they wanted. The inflamed the event. This was the same tactics used by the left at the Trump rallies during the elections. They purposely worked to insight violence. It was the fault of BOTH sides.

So White Supremacy AND Black Supremacy AND HATRED of all kinds angers Jesus. War angers Jesus. SIN angers Jesus.

Condemning one side and ignoring the actions of the other side is unbalanced and unfair. It adds to the divide and increases the hostility of the one side.

The church will ALWAYS fall short of the life and example of Jesus.
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PeterG
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby PeterG » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:10 am

I'm afraid that we're underestimating the dangers of white nationalism and similar or related ideas within our conservative Anabaptist communities. I spend practially no time on Facebook, but I do spend a great deal of time with conservative Anabaptist young people. These are some of the ideas that I have heard some of my conservative Mennonite high school students express over the years:

-Christians should fight their own jihad (and not in a metaphorical sense).
-Someone should kill President Obama.
-Violence is the only proper response to radical Islam.
-The populations of regions containing Muslim terrorists should be obliterated.

To be clear, most of my students have not held such opinions. But this type of thinking has been represented among a noticable minority. I know it's not exactly the same thing as white nationalism or what have you, but it's clearly related to white nationalism, etc. In contrast, I can't recall a single instance of a student expressing a left-wing sentiment.

---------------------------------

We can find plenty of reasons to criticize the Charlottesville counterprotesters, particularly from an Anabaptist perspective, but virtually all of those criticisms apply at least equally, and perhaps much more, to the original protesters, who have several additional objectionable characteristics. If you're going to comment on the events of last Saturday and criticize anyone, I don't understand how you can not be clearly more critical of the protesters than of the counterprotesters. It's like criticizing the French Resistance more than the Nazis, or the Kurds more than ISIS.
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RZehr
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby RZehr » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:27 am

Where are your students getting these ideas? Reading to much news magazines? I've seen young Mennos become quite right wing only by reading their parents US News or World Report magazine. Young people are quick to believe what they read.

Last night my 9 year old triumphantly read me a story out of a Fishwrapper book, about NASA looking for a missing day in the past and how a Christian showed them the answer out of the Bible. I had heard this before, so I let him finish and then we looked up the story. Not true. http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.asp I know these Fishwrapper books are quite popular, but I think most of the stories in there are probably not true.
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haithabu
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby haithabu » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:01 pm

PeterG wrote:
We can find plenty of reasons to criticize the Charlottesville counterprotesters, particularly from an Anabaptist perspective, but virtually all of those criticisms apply at least equally, and perhaps much more, to the original protesters, who have several additional objectionable characteristics. If you're going to comment on the events of last Saturday and criticize anyone, I don't understand how you can not be clearly more critical of the protesters than of the counterprotesters. It's like criticizing the French Resistance more than the Nazis, or the Kurds more than ISIS.


I think we can and should distinguish between moral issues in assessing a complicated event like Charlottesville. One issue is the general violence between the sides; another is the hit and run and another is the views of the WN groups themselves. It is possible to condemn those views and the hit and run and still say that both sides were equally responsible for the general violence. Saying the latter doesn't nullify the former and shouldn't seen as implicit support for or complacency toward those views. And yet many assume just that.

I don't believe that moral responsibility is a zero sum game. When Adam and Eve sinned they both attempted to exculpate themselves by pointing the finger elsewhere, yet God judged each of them separately according to their own responsibility and so He will each of us.
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Re: White supremacy angers Jesus, but does it anger his church?

Postby Robert » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:32 pm

PeterG wrote:I don't understand how you can not be clearly more critical of the protesters than of the counterprotesters.


This is taking what I posted out of context and not what I said. I said I reject both sides. How does that elevate one over the other? Sin is sin. There are more consequences from some sin then others, but all are brokenness. I just stated that the counter protesters were wanting violence to break out. This was their agenda too. The car that ran over the woman was struck several times before the driver reacted with his actions. NEITHER actions were good or beneficial. One caused a much higher consequence. This person will also face that action and consequence. He will be arrested, tried and most likely jailed.

Deciding one side was more righteous than the other is another way of accepting "just war." Well, we have to blow them up because they are more evil then the action of blowing them up. They should be silenced because we do not like what they are saying. We can beat and enslave them because their skin color makes them sub human. All these are wrong and rationalizations. All lead to more conflict. All lead to electing people like President Trump when one side feels totally shut down and unheard.
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