Charlottesville

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Bootstrap
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

PeterG wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
PeterG wrote:We shouldn't necessarily go around making unsolicited proclamations about, say, abortion or white nationalism, but there's a time to be clear about what's right and what's wrong.
I think this is one of those times.
That may well be. The main thing that concerns me is that the tail seems to end up wagging the dog so often. I fear that we're not saying much to the world besides our response to the moral question of the day, and Christianity ends up being all about that response in the world's (and our?) perception. To a large degree this has happened over the past few decades through the church's response to the sexual revolution, and as far as many non-Christians can tell our faith begins and ends with a system of sexual morality. This is really a shame. But of course the answer isn't to become silent on moral issues...
Yeah. We need to discover our own voice. And we're not doing very well at that. And that's worthy of a thread of its own.
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Sudsy
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Sudsy »

MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote:Maybe troubling would be a better word. :)

We can pray for the ones involved. If I lived in Charlotte, I suppose I would have opportunity to have conversations with people that are involved, perhaps on both sides of the issue. I would invite both sides to be willing to suffer wrongs, instead of fighting for that elusive "justice". Maybe listen to people, lend them my ear.

As it is, I don't really know what there is for me to say that would have any beneficial affect whatsoever on this situation.
I believe that we are most effective and most heard outside the national conversations where there are so many voices yelling that we have difficulty even being heard.
I would rather the spotlight find us for our good deeds, instead of running around to each national incident and trying to inject ourselves into the conversation.


But I'm really not dogmatic on this. I would be slow to criticize anyone trying to help the situation.
:up: :up: Well said, RZehr.

As a point of spiritual leadership and guidance directed to the 89 million Roman Catholics in the USA, our Bishops issued a statement calling all Catholics to prayers for peace and for those involved.

Whenever we face crises, our Bishops are responsible for guiding our large flock spiritually with Catholic teachings on the matter. If you're interested, you can read their entire statement at their official website so that you don't have to put up with the opinionating editorials by secular sources that have political agendas and spin. Here's the original and complete text.

For the Catholic man or woman in the pew, we are called to pray for all and assist with comfort where we can rather than spending time debating.
Curious about the underline stat. In other posts you have used the 1.2 billion Catholics in the world stat. Is this to give weight to what is said regarding Catholic practises and beliefs ? I think there is time for both debating, praying and giving comfort and above all leading others to the One who came to save the world.
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temporal1
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by temporal1 »

PeterG wrote:
temporal1 wrote:i don't intend to be critical of her;
I'm glad to know that. But, to me, your words have seemed very critical of her and the group that she was associated with. Your words have not matched your intentions.
temporal1 wrote:i've stated before, i'm so glad the internet and social media were not available in prior times. young people do things they later regret, they grow up.

"young people" now often includes those into their 40's .. versus in former times, "adults" would have included 16-18 year olds, with expectations of responsibility to match.

the world is growing political activists who know little about what they're acting for/against.
there's a lot of ego involved.

i do wince at big strong able well-fed people claiming oppression.
Which side in the Charlottesville protests are you referring to?
temporal1 wrote:what more is there to say about him?
At least as much as there is to say about his alleged victims.
your questions underline, to me, how we are all affected by our personal experiences, and, definitely, what we have been reading, which has not always been read by all present.

after reading this about the driver today, i felt no need to say or think anything more about him.
so, no, i would not have as much to say about him as about the victim.
of course, this could seem peculiar to anyone who had not read it:
Driver
http://www.ntd.tv/2017/08/15/charlottes ... abled-mom/

regarding your question above about "which side?" - all sides.
everyone i witness in these clashes enjoys great freedom+privilege. imho, they all need to be thinking more about gratitude than "me," and, "more."
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Sudsy »

At Mass, let us offer a special prayer of gratitude for the brave souls who sought to protect us from the violent ideology displayed yesterday. Let us especially remember those who lost their lives. Let us join their witness and stand against every form of oppression.
I guess this is a place where I would differ from the Catholic instruction here. I have to agree with Trump in the argument he is making today (if it is true that those opposing the alt-white and others came with tools of violence) because regardless of who is right, standing against every form of oppression should never cross the line of violence. I don't see where Jesus instructed His followers to fight in the battles inside worldly kingdoms. Words putting down racism, same sex marriage and other areas we wish was morally different is not our mission. We are strangers and ambassadors of another Kingdom and those who join us should be taught in the ways of Jesus. Jesus told Peter to put away His sword and not take the same actions that the world takes in defending our beliefs. Imo, there is too much attempting to make non-Christians to act more Christian when what they need is to become new creations in Christ Jesus.
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Re: Charlottesville

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Here are clergy linking arms and praying, while facing armed militiamen who came in for the rally.

Image

What do you think? Was this an appropriate witness? Why or why not?
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:I have to agree with Trump in the argument he is making today (if it is true that those opposing the alt-white and others came with tools of violence)
Yes - but "if it is true" is really crucial in that sentence. I'm listening, we'll probably know over the coming weeks and months.
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:Here are clergy linking arms and praying, while facing armed militiamen who came in for the rally.

Image

What do you think? Was this an appropriate witness? Why or why not?
So what sins are Christians going to lock arms over and which are one's they will not bother ? Many believe, for instance, that Trump obviously lies. So, where is the demonstration of all Christians standing at the white house gates denouncing lying ?

Seems to me Christian demonstrations are one way being used to 'take back America' in a sense that somehow this is how we will achieve ultimately bringing about a 'Christian nation'. I don't follow this view that Christ will return once this mission is completed. Or for others it may be an attempt to stand for a moral high ground when that, I believe, is not what Christianity is about. It is not trying to get lost sinners to live by our moral beliefs.

I guess it comes down to my two kingdom view and what I believe is an ambassador of another country involves. In the other kingdom world, an ambassador really doesn't attempt to change how that kingdom operates. He/she is just there to represent the home country and assist anyone who may have an interest in becoming a citizen of that home country.

I once joined a demonstration against same sex marriage. Today, years later, I would not join in. Not because my beliefs have changed on the subject but because I would feel like I have joined the other kingdom in it's ways of trying to affect change when I believe change needs to come as a heart change by the Lord.
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by MaxPC »

Sudsy wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote:Maybe troubling would be a better word. :)

We can pray for the ones involved. If I lived in Charlotte, I suppose I would have opportunity to have conversations with people that are involved, perhaps on both sides of the issue. I would invite both sides to be willing to suffer wrongs, instead of fighting for that elusive "justice". Maybe listen to people, lend them my ear.

As it is, I don't really know what there is for me to say that would have any beneficial affect whatsoever on this situation.
I believe that we are most effective and most heard outside the national conversations where there are so many voices yelling that we have difficulty even being heard.
I would rather the spotlight find us for our good deeds, instead of running around to each national incident and trying to inject ourselves into the conversation.


But I'm really not dogmatic on this. I would be slow to criticize anyone trying to help the situation.
:up: :up: Well said, RZehr.

As a point of spiritual leadership and guidance directed to the 89 million Roman Catholics in the USA, our Bishops issued a statement calling all Catholics to prayers for peace and for those involved.

Whenever we face crises, our Bishops are responsible for guiding our large flock spiritually with Catholic teachings on the matter. If you're interested, you can read their entire statement at their official website so that you don't have to put up with the opinionating editorials by secular sources that have political agendas and spin. Here's the original and complete text.

For the Catholic man or woman in the pew, we are called to pray for all and assist with comfort where we can rather than spending time debating.
Curious about the underline stat. In other posts you have used the 1.2 billion Catholics in the world stat. Is this to give weight to what is said regarding Catholic practises and beliefs ? I think there is time for both debating, praying and giving comfort and above all leading others to the One who came to save the world.
Sudsy, I give those stats to clarify a specific administrative/logistical point facing our Church due to its size. Thank you for asking.

Eg in this instance as the events occurred on USA turf, it impacts the USA Bishops who lead the USA Catholics which number 89 million. When they have an urgent need to seize a "faith-teaching moment" they'll use multiple venues to convey that message from the pulpit, their website and in print. They have a formidable task of teaching that many but it's necessary to fulfill their solemnly vowed responsibilities.

When I use the 1.2 billion stat it's to emphasize the massive logistical problem facing the Church on a worldwide level vis a vis worldwide administration of parishes and the dissemination of the Core Deposit of Faith among the multitude of countries and their cultures.

No worries, I have no problem with your disagreement. Knowing the "ecclesial-speak" used, I know they were offering prayers to cover all involved including the two state troopers who died in a copter crash. They prayed for a conversion of hearts toward peace; for the comfort and healing of those injured; and for those in mourning who lost loved ones. They also emphasized to USA Catholics that there are absolute Catholic teachings regarding violence, bigotry, inciting to hatred and racism regardless of from which end of the political spectrum it originates. The Bishops reminded the Catholic laity that on these issues there is no debate by using a strongly worded document. When you see such statements at their official and authentic website, they are trying to reach the maximum number of the 89 million USA Catholics in a minimum amount of time. Obviously email and the Internet have expedited that effort :D
Last edited by MaxPC on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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temporal1
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by temporal1 »

without knowing what the above picture is .. it appears to be 2 sides of 1 coin.
i see nothing Christ-like in locked arms forming a defiant impenetrable human wall against .. ??

i'm not saying no one should do this. i would not.

early on in my MD experience, there was an anticipated event that was expected to attract Westboro Baptist members. (i don't recall clearly.) i do recall one CM MD member suggested a group might be present with a table and sandwiches to offer .. i thought that might be a good idea.

i'm attempting to learn about 2 kingdom CO theology on this forum.
when i read members claim their political neutrality, or non-political, or a-political beliefs, while defining just what they consider permissable for our POTUS to do, say, think, etc., this just doesn't wash, in my mind. "i'm not political / evil politics." - "i'm on this side!" i'm sorry.

it seems more honest to just admit your politics and own it.
we humans delude ourselves in one way or another.

"Trump obviously lies," more than other politicians? .. i would say, no more than other politicians.
possibly less. possibly much less. people loathe the truth. they lap up lies.

at this moment, i am with those who appreciate he is attempting to hold ALL sides accountable for their contributions to Saturday's disaster in Charlottesville. hold all accountable, or don't bother with it. that includes the mayor, vice-mayor, et al.

having said that, this is an ugly ugly time for the U.S.

Trump did not build it. if it had not been built, he would not be POTUS.
i can think of no other with the personal fortitude to attempt to salvage something out of it.
for better or worse, he is giving it his best shot.

in the meanwhile, it appears Trump was able to negotiate with China and other countries to get NK to back down from threatening Guam. i hope it's true, and, it sticks.

Texas has ruled their taxpayers will no longer fund abortions.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Of interest, being in the South-
Most of the Christian folks I know are open to denounce racism when discussing these kinds of events, but they usually follow up immediately with "but we shouldn't rewrite history".

Really? Is an expensive hunk of metal synonymous with history? Read a book if you're so interested in preserving history. Keep history where it belongs.

I can't help but think...They could tear down every statue of Jesus and burn every cross on the planet, and it would "erase" NOTHING. Man's symbols preserve no meaning and truly serve no purpose.
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