Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
lesterb
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by lesterb »

The US is one of the few places in the world where people can really get rich by being part of the medical system. Some of our better Canadian doctors have transferred south because of this. Canada's system makes health care affordable for pretty well everyone, but then you have some people who slip through the cracks at times because of the pressure on the system.

My personal experience has been that the US medical system would keep me from moving to the US, probably. We've always been happy with Canadian health care, and there is no way that I could afford the kind of care we've gotten here, in the US. I know that some others feel different about that, but I can only go by my personal experiences.
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appleman2006
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by appleman2006 »

Just for the record I also would not choose to move to the US at this point in my life even if that were a possibility due to the fact that at this point in my life getting an affordable medical insurance plan would be impossible. And I in no way blame the insurance companies for that.

I am always surprised at how few people really seem to understand how insurance works. As I have said before the basic definition of insurance is that the premiums of the many pay for the losses of the few. It is that simple On top of that there is of course the administration costs and of course hopefully a profit for those that have invested in the insurance company in the first place.
I dare say that insurance is probably the most regulated industry out there. And there are lots of good reasons for that with the primary one being the effort to reduce fraud on both sides. But within those regulations there needs to be at least a reasonable chance at an insurance company making a profit. Otherwise no one would invest in insurance companies at all.

Here is the Coles version as I understand it as to what happened with Obamacare. The Obama administration correctly recognized that if they force insurance companies to insure everybody even those with preexisting conditions that the only way the insurance companies even had a chance of making money was for them to force everyone to be insured. But here is why it was doomed to fail and why the insurance companies for the most part knew it would. The insurance companies to a large extent were already covering the good risks and they really were not even getting rich doing that. (lots of insurance companies are making money just not so much on providing health insurance)

Now all of a sudden they had to cover every one that came to them. Of course their claims skyrocketed meaning they had to raise premiums. Many insurance companies saw the writing on the wall and got out of the medical insurance business altogether which only added to the problem for those left in because now it meant they really had to take all cases. The only way those left agreed to stay in was to raise deductibles to crazy almost meaningless high levels as well as raise premiums. Every time an insurance company changes a rate or any part of a policy they must get government approval but in this case it was easy because they either said they would quit altogether and I am sure had no problem showing crazy losses.
Obamacare will not fail because of this administration. It would of failed just as fast under Hillary. By the very laws of mathematics it was doomed to fail.

(to be continued)
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joshuabgood
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by joshuabgood »

What we have is the worst of both worlds. It isn't free market and it isn't true single payer.

It would be better if it were one or the other...
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temporal1
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by temporal1 »

appleman2006 wrote:Just for the record I also would not choose to move to the US at this point in my life even if that were a possibility due to the fact that at this point in my life getting an affordable medical insurance plan would be impossible. And I in no way blame the insurance companies for that.

I am always surprised at how few people really seem to understand how insurance works. As I have said before the basic definition of insurance is that the premiums of the many pay for the losses of the few. It is that simple On top of that there is of course the administration costs and of course hopefully a profit for those that have invested in the insurance company in the first place.
I dare say that insurance is probably the most regulated industry out there. And there are lots of good reasons for that with the primary one being the effort to reduce fraud on both sides. But within those regulations there needs to be at least a reasonable chance at an insurance company making a profit. Otherwise no one would invest in insurance companies at all.

Here is the Coles version as I understand it as to what happened with Obamacare. The Obama administration correctly recognized that if they force insurance companies to insure everybody even those with preexisting conditions that the only way the insurance companies even had a chance of making money was for them to force everyone to be insured. But here is why it was doomed to fail and why the insurance companies for the most part knew it would. The insurance companies to a large extent were already covering the good risks and they really were not even getting rich doing that. (lots of insurance companies are making money just not so much on providing health insurance)

Now all of a sudden they had to cover every one that came to them. Of course their claims skyrocketed meaning they had to raise premiums. Many insurance companies saw the writing on the wall and got out of the medical insurance business altogether which only added to the problem for those left in because now it meant they really had to take all cases. The only way those left agreed to stay in was to raise deductibles to crazy almost meaningless high levels as well as raise premiums. Every time an insurance company changes a rate or any part of a policy they must get government approval but in this case it was easy because they either said they would quit altogether and I am sure had no problem showing crazy losses.

:arrow: Obamacare will not fail because of this administration.
:arrow: It would of failed just as fast under Hillary.
By the very laws of mathematics it was doomed to fail.

(to be continued)
it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
obamacare supporters are convinced, just as SOP government mentality goes, throwing more money at failures is "always" the solution. of course, it's always "other peoples' money," politicians do not respect the public treasury. esp when they do NOT have to live with the decisions they mandate for others.

politicians do a fabulous job of creating wealth for themselves.
so, we know they can do it. they have no incentive to put the common good first.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by Bootstrap »

joshuabgood wrote:What we have is the worst of both worlds. It isn't free market and it isn't true single payer.

It would be better if it were one or the other...
I agree.
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PeterG
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by PeterG »

appleman2006 wrote:The Obama administration correctly recognized that if they force insurance companies to insure everybody even those with preexisting conditions that the only way the insurance companies even had a chance of making money was for them to force everyone to be insured. But here is why it was doomed to fail and why the insurance companies for the most part knew it would. The insurance companies to a large extent were already covering the good risks and they really were not even getting rich doing that. (lots of insurance companies are making money just not so much on providing health insurance)

Now all of a sudden they had to cover every one that came to them. Of course their claims skyrocketed meaning they had to raise premiums. Many insurance companies saw the writing on the wall and got out of the medical insurance business altogether which only added to the problem for those left in because now it meant they really had to take all cases. The only way those left agreed to stay in was to raise deductibles to crazy almost meaningless high levels as well as raise premiums. Every time an insurance company changes a rate or any part of a policy they must get government approval but in this case it was easy because they either said they would quit altogether and I am sure had no problem showing crazy losses.
Obamacare will not fail because of this administration. It would of failed just as fast under Hillary. By the very laws of mathematics it was doomed to fail.
If I understand you correctly, you believe it is impossible to have a sustainable insurance system that provides coverage regardless of preexisting conditions or other high-risk factors. Is this correct? Could such a system be sustainable if it were not for profit, or if it were a cost-sharing program such as those used by many of our churches? If not, what is to be done for those with preexisting conditions, etc.?
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appleman2006
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by appleman2006 »

I would agree with Josh's statement. What you have now is really not a good system at all. But here is the problem. I really do not think you meaning you as in the majority of the population would be anywhere close to being prepared to paying the taxes necessary to make system like ours work. And the sad part about it is that even if you did some of you would with time be getting worst medical care than you do today but paying much more out of your own pocket.
I personally believe that our system really started going backwards when we stopped having to pay a quarterly premium directly to the government. I think that was the beginning of the end for our system.
Before that in order to get your health care you had to pay I think about 180 dollars per person a quarter (this was almost 30 years ago). That still only covered about 20 percent of the costs I believe. The rest was covered to regular taxes, out of the big pot so to speak. Some people had this paid as a benefit buy their employee but many paid it directly. But that all changed and I think it was at that time that people started taking the system for granted.

I do not have the answers as to what you should do but one thing I know without much higher taxes you cannot afford the system you now have. And your country is already so broke it probably does not have the resources to take on anything of this magnitude. But I have very little sympathy for those in your country that chose not to belong to some kind of insurance plan or medical aid plan if you prefer to call it that when they were young and now wonder why they cannot get coverage. Insurance simply does not work that way. It would be like applying to the auto insurance company for coverage after you have had the accident or to the building insurance plan to pay for your house after it has been destroyed even though you had never paid premiums.
Frankly I do not get it. You might actually never have a car accident or maybe never have your house burned down but someday we will all need medical help. Be very thankful if you are one of the lucky ones that would pay more into the plan than you ever take out. Your dollars have gone to help others less fortunate.
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PeterG
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by PeterG »

appleman2006 wrote:Be very thankful if you are one of the lucky ones that would pay more into the plan than you ever take out. Your dollars have gone to help others less fortunate.
This is an excellent perspective.
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appleman2006
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by appleman2006 »

PeterG wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:The Obama administration correctly recognized that if they force insurance companies to insure everybody even those with preexisting conditions that the only way the insurance companies even had a chance of making money was for them to force everyone to be insured. But here is why it was doomed to fail and why the insurance companies for the most part knew it would. The insurance companies to a large extent were already covering the good risks and they really were not even getting rich doing that. (lots of insurance companies are making money just not so much on providing health insurance)

Now all of a sudden they had to cover every one that came to them. Of course their claims skyrocketed meaning they had to raise premiums. Many insurance companies saw the writing on the wall and got out of the medical insurance business altogether which only added to the problem for those left in because now it meant they really had to take all cases. The only way those left agreed to stay in was to raise deductibles to crazy almost meaningless high levels as well as raise premiums. Every time an insurance company changes a rate or any part of a policy they must get government approval but in this case it was easy because they either said they would quit altogether and I am sure had no problem showing crazy losses.
Obamacare will not fail because of this administration. It would of failed just as fast under Hillary. By the very laws of mathematics it was doomed to fail.
If I understand you correctly, you believe it is impossible to have a sustainable insurance system that provides coverage regardless of preexisting conditions or other high-risk factors. Is this correct? Could such a system be sustainable if it were not for profit, or if it were a cost-sharing program such as those used by many of our churches? If not, what is to be done for those with preexisting conditions, etc.?
I think that if the base of people is large enough and if everyone with that large base has to start paying for coverage from little on up that it could possibly work. But if people are allowed to opt out for the healthy time in their life than no it will not work. If a system like this were put in place there would be no preexisting conditions. Because everyone would be covered from birth.
As an incentive for people to stay healthy premium deductions for claim free experience could be put in place as many other types of insurance do. But I think even this would have to be pretty limited in order for it to work. I think you have to be careful about using many church plans as a basis for success because as I understand it even some of these are having problems for the same types of reasons. People think they can do just fine on their own until a big sickness comes along. Than they expect the brotherhood to help out. They justify themselves because after all they always threw in a few dollars when the offering plate was passed for other sad cases.
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PeterG
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Re: Why do People Hate Obamacare?

Post by PeterG »

appleman2006 wrote:I think that if the base of people is large enough and if everyone with that large base has to start paying for coverage from little on up that it could possibly work. But if people are allowed to opt out for the healthy time in their life than no it will not work. If a system like this were put in place there would be no preexisting conditions. Because everyone would be covered from birth.
As an incentive for people to stay healthy premium deductions for claim free experience could be put in place as many other types of insurance do. But I think even this would have to be pretty limited in order for it to work. I think you have to be careful about using many church plans as a basis for success because as I understand it even some of these are having problems for the same types of reasons. People think they can do just fine on their own until a big sickness comes along. Than they expect the brotherhood to help out. They justify themselves because after all they always threw in a few dollars when the offering plate was passed for other sad cases.
Thanks for the reply. What you say here makes a lot of sense. Though I must say that what you're describing is the central idea behind Obamacare as I understand it, in theory if not in application.
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