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I'm intrigued by the idea lawmakers and courts set the moral direction of the country.

Josh wrote:I'm intrigued by the idea lawmakers and courts set the moral direction of the country.

Romans 13 friend

Maybe this is why.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/07/04 ... -in-sight/

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/07/04 ... -of-paris/

I was sure these things happened a few hundred years ago, but I guess news can run a little slow.

Valerie wrote:

Josh wrote:I'm intrigued by the idea lawmakers and courts set the moral direction of the country.

Romans 13 friend

You like Nero's morality and laws?

Josh wrote:

Valerie wrote:

Josh wrote:I'm intrigued by the idea lawmakers and courts set the moral direction of the country.

Romans 13 friend

You like Nero's morality and laws?

So do you dismiss Romans 13? For whatever it's worth, I appreciate the Orthodox interpretation and application of this- I won't bother sharing, but think they get it right- Romans 13 is important to remember-

Valerie wrote:So do you dismiss Romans 13? For whatever it's worth, I appreciate the Orthodox interpretation and application of this- I won't bother sharing, but think they get it right- Romans 13 is important to remember-

I don't dismiss Romans 13. My perspective on Romans 13 is the Anabaptist interpretation which, like most Anabaptist interpretations of things, is a call to my personally to tell me how to live in obedience to God. So the call on me is to avoid breaking the law unnecessarily.

I do not interpret Romans 13 as explaining how to decide what exactly is a just/unjust government, nor do I interpret Romans 13 as calling for unlimited allegiance to the state, particularly its wars. I don't want to sound dismissive, but I am not very interested in a lot of the Orthodox interpretations of things in light of how intertwined the Orthodox church is with various state governments like Russia or Greece.

Josh wrote:

Valerie wrote:So do you dismiss Romans 13? For whatever it's worth, I appreciate the Orthodox interpretation and application of this- I won't bother sharing, but think they get it right- Romans 13 is important to remember-

I don't dismiss Romans 13. My perspective on Romans 13 is the Anabaptist interpretation which, like most Anabaptist interpretations of things, is a call to my personally to tell me how to live in obedience to God. So the call on me is to avoid breaking the law unnecessarily.

I do not interpret Romans 13 as explaining how to decide what exactly is a just/unjust government, nor do I interpret Romans 13 as calling for unlimited allegiance to the state, particularly its wars. I don't want to sound dismissive, but I am not very interested in a lot of the Orthodox interpretations of things in light of how intertwined the Orthodox church is with various state governments like Russia or Greece.

I understand, I just don't fully agree. I don't think it 'excludes' governments, at all- they are God's ministers (not church ministers!) but I don't believe in full separation of Church & State since Jesus came, His will being done on earth as it is in heaven- doesn't mean He forced authority to worship him, but, there are those who did and do and will use their faith for good- I tend to agree with the earliest interpretations of Romans 13- even realizing evil leaders can creep in. They even did that in Israel, some were evil, some were good, but it was still God's arrangement.
Isaiah 60:
Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Gene wrote:

PeterG wrote:This looks to me like another thread about how wrong other people are.

Isn't that why the internet exists?

Peter makes a good point here. I really don't want to be bashing, but I do think this illustrates why it is so important for us not to conflate religion with political agendas. In a lot of ways, conflating religion and politics is the most natural thing on earth. It's what Verduin refers to as sacralism.

Maybe starting this thread was a bad idea. Is there a more positive way I could have approached this?

Valerie wrote:... it's understandable why you believe Christians should just let the trainwreck of morality continue without trying to make any difference in it ...

Gene hasn't been around for a while, so perhaps you're forgetting the richness of his rhetoric. But before you try putting words in his mouth, consider that the tongue may be so firmly embedded in the cheek that there's no room to insert anything else.

There are those of us, railfans included, who believe that the only hope for moral rescue is in Matthew 6:10. Politics, including national political parties and their registered members of whatever persuasion, is a false hope and a diversion from our calling as ambassadors of the Kingdom.

ohio jones wrote:

Valerie wrote:... it's understandable why you believe Christians should just let the trainwreck of morality continue without trying to make any difference in it ...

Gene hasn't been around for a while, so perhaps you're forgetting the richness of his rhetoric. But before you try putting words in his mouth, consider that the tongue may be so firmly embedded in the cheek that there's no room to insert anything else.

There are those of us, railfans included, who believe that the only hope for moral rescue is in Matthew 6:10. Politics, including national political parties and their registered members of whatever persuasion, is a false hope and a diversion from our calling as ambassadors of the Kingdom.

I, in my heart of hearts, believe Romans 13 as being what it says, that Government is God's ministers against evil- and therefore His will would be that they, used by Him SHOULD control all types of evil, and how does government even know good from evil? I think I will surely be the only one on the forum who thinks that it is God's will, to be involved in the government, but I don't get that from my own human reasoning, but from His Word, prophesies, and even though I agree, only God can change a heart, and although I do not put my 'trust' in government, I believe part of being ambassadors for Christ, is recognizing what being God's minister of good and evil is as leaders over a nation- it seems odd to me, to have the belief then that a leader is supposed to be an unbeliever.