"Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
RZehr
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Post by RZehr »

What is the difference between Patriotism and Religion?
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

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RZehr wrote:What is the difference between Patriotism and Religion?
Driving past my local megachurch this morning, I noticed two MASSIVE flags are adorning the outside of it which faces the highway.
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Post by PeterG »

buckeyematt2 wrote:Has it degenerated? So far I've seen discussion, and some disagreement, but I haven't seen people having an argument, at least in the sense of a "fight". Seems pretty mild.
I agree, the discussion has been civil, and I appreciate that. I just find it unfortunate that it's so hard to talk about rejecting idolatry without debating which sect is most idolatrous, or has the worst idol.
buckeyematt2 wrote:I think we should be able to talk about specific cases where something is wrong, and not just the general subject, even if it requires a clarification that we aren't excusing other instances, or the other "side". I think there is a way to bring up the other "side" in a way that isn't simply what-aboutism, such as a clarification or an expansion of the discussion to show how the principle applies across the board. If people are being fair-minded and willing to give each other the benefit of the doubt, then that should bring them to find something they can agree on together, or at least to an amicable agreeing to disagree. If they're not willing to have that attitude, then a profitable discussion isn't possible. I agree what-aboutism is wrong.
PeterG wrote:As haithabu said elsewhere,
haithabu wrote:I would find it refreshing if just once instead of "yes, but" or "backatcha" or "what about" someone would simply say, "Yes, I agree that's wrong and it bothers me too!"
I agree with this. I think this goes against not only what-aboutism, but also the opposite, i.e. not bringing up controversial subjects at all.
Good thoughts here.
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Post by MattY »

RZehr wrote:What is the difference between Patriotism and Religion?
More questions:
Is it the same as the difference between love of one's community or family and religion?
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." - Luke 14:26

What is patriotism? What is the difference between patriotism and nationalism?

Here is a link with one take on this.
https://ricochet.com/411576/patriotism-not-nationalism/
Nationalism is something else. It’s hard to think of a nationalist who does not pervert patriotism into something aggressive – either against foreign adversaries or against domestic minorities, or both...Our own history is not pristine. We’ve had our moments of belligerent nationalism. The Mexican/American War, for example, was a pure land grab...I’m not proposing that we return California to the Mexicans (though considering their voting patterns, it’s tempting), but the war that brought California (and other states) into our union was not our finest hour. It was, arguably, the hour of maximal American nationalism...Demagogues of the right – or nationalists – argue that our troubles are the result of immigrants taking our jobs or foreigners stealing our factories. This is not natural love of home and hearth or reverence for America’s founding ideals, it is scapegoating.
Is patriotism only one thing or could there be different forms of it? Is there a possible moderate patriotism that appreciates positive things about one's country, while not "pledging allegiance" to that country, as our allegiance is to a heavenly kingdom, nor mixing patriotism into worship services, nor revering the military or honoring soldiers as heroes? Can you love your country, like you love your family, community, church, etc., but love God above all? Perhaps it can be in the spirit of Jeremiah 29:7 - "But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare."

Tertullian said:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm
For we offer prayer for the safety of our princes to the eternal, the true, the living God, whose favour, beyond all others, they must themselves desire. They know from whom they have obtained their power...Without ceasing, for all our emperors we offer prayer. We pray for life prolonged; for security to the empire; for protection to the imperial house; for brave armies, a faithful senate, a virtuous people, the world at rest, whatever, as man or Cæsar, an emperor would wish. These things I cannot ask from any but the God from whom I know I shall obtain them, both because He alone bestows them and because I have claims upon Him for their gift, as being a servant of His, rendering homage to Him alone...
I suppose if you equate the nations of the world with Satan's kingdom, then any kind of patriotism is out of the question. But are the kingdoms (plural) of the world not the same as the kingdom of Satan? Are governments evil because they are part of Satan's kingdom, or because creation is fallen and they are influenced by Satan's kingdom? I take the latter view. I think Scripture speaks of rulers, nations, and their authority in a way more consistent with that view.
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Post by Bootstrap »

PeterG wrote:I agree, the discussion has been civil, and I appreciate that. I just find it unfortunate that it's so hard to talk about rejecting idolatry without debating which sect is most idolatrous, or has the worst idol.
YES !!! That's just it.

And here's why: idolatry has well-trained defense mechanisms that are pretty predictable. If you question someone's idolatry, you often get one of the following responses:
  • "Oh, if you reject my idolatry, you must be an idolatrous worshipper of the other side"
  • "Why do I treat this political figure as God? Well, I don't, not at all, but the other candidate is Satan, let me tell you all about that ..."
Nobody wants to consider their own political idolatry. We want to talk about that other guy's political idolatry. But it's a real danger for most of us - it's in the air we breathe if we live in mainstream American society, watch TV, read magazines, or surf the Internet.
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Post by Bootstrap »

buckeyematt2 wrote:Is patriotism only one thing or could there be different forms of it? Is there a possible moderate patriotism that appreciates positive things about one's country, while not "pledging allegiance" to that country, as our allegiance is to a heavenly kingdom, nor mixing patriotism into worship services, nor revering the military or honoring soldiers as heroes? Can you love your country, like you love your family, community, church, etc., but love God above all? Perhaps it can be in the spirit of Jeremiah 29:7 - "But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare."

Tertullian said:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm
For we offer prayer for the safety of our princes to the eternal, the true, the living God, whose favour, beyond all others, they must themselves desire. They know from whom they have obtained their power...Without ceasing, for all our emperors we offer prayer. We pray for life prolonged; for security to the empire; for protection to the imperial house; for brave armies, a faithful senate, a virtuous people, the world at rest, whatever, as man or Cæsar, an emperor would wish. These things I cannot ask from any but the God from whom I know I shall obtain them, both because He alone bestows them and because I have claims upon Him for their gift, as being a servant of His, rendering homage to Him alone...
Yes, I think so. But I think that kind of Christian love of country not only appreciates but also mourns, hungers and thirsts for righteousness, and loves and prays for other countries. It's a little like loving one's children.
buckeyematt2 wrote:I suppose if you equate the nations of the world with Satan's kingdom, then any kind of patriotism is out of the question. But are the kingdoms (plural) of the world not the same as the kingdom of Satan? Are governments evil because they are part of Satan's kingdom, or because creation is fallen and they are influenced by Satan's kingdom? I take the latter view. I think Scripture speaks of rulers, nations, and their authority in a way more consistent with that view.
Marpeck vs. Sattler again ...
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Valerie
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Post by Valerie »

PeterG wrote:
buckeyematt2 wrote:Has it degenerated? So far I've seen discussion, and some disagreement, but I haven't seen people having an argument, at least in the sense of a "fight". Seems pretty mild.
I agree, the discussion has been civil, and I appreciate that. I just find it unfortunate that it's so hard to talk about rejecting idolatry without debating which sect is most idolatrous, or has the worst idol.
buckeyematt2 wrote:I think we should be able to talk about specific cases where something is wrong, and not just the general subject, even if it requires a clarification that we aren't excusing other instances, or the other "side". I think there is a way to bring up the other "side" in a way that isn't simply what-aboutism, such as a clarification or an expansion of the discussion to show how the principle applies across the board. If people are being fair-minded and willing to give each other the benefit of the doubt, then that should bring them to find something they can agree on together, or at least to an amicable agreeing to disagree. If they're not willing to have that attitude, then a profitable discussion isn't possible. I agree what-aboutism is wrong.
PeterG wrote:As haithabu said elsewhere,
I agree with this. I think this goes against not only what-aboutism, but also the opposite, i.e. not bringing up controversial subjects at all.
Good thoughts here.
This exchange is good- I would ask, if I may- the definition of 'idolatry' in this context please?
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

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Valerie wrote:This exchange is good- I would ask, if I may- the definition of 'idolatry' in this context please?
Worth reading: Joining a Political Party: Idolatry?
I don’t know much about the politics of other nations, but one of the persistent idolatries I notice in American politics is the constant and unquestioning worship of and loyalty to partisan ideology. I would like to argue in this post that absolute allegiance to any political party is antithetical to the Christian core creed, “Jesus is Lord.”
She compares our political situation to Paul's teaching in Romans 13, saying this:
In the context of a brutal, oppressive regime that demands idol worship, Paul’s words are really quite shocking. If you are an American and you think you are experiencing persecution, what you are experiencing ain’t nothin’ compared to what the Early Church faced! No one is threatening to have lions tear your flesh from your bones in front of a cheering, murderous audience. No one is sentencing you to public annihilation if you refuse to say an idol is God. So, surely we can agree that if Paul’s words apply to such a world as that of the Early Church, they certainly apply to us today in a country that enjoys significant freedom.
And she explains why Paul saw it that way:
You see, Paul was not concerned with providing the Church with earthly power and dominion. He was concerned with the spreading of the Gospel and maintaining the credibility of Christian witness. He realized that God uses situations of weakness to show His strength. Our Savior entered the world humbly and asks that His followers walk in His footsteps in the same manner. When Christians get intoxicated by political power (or any other kind of earthly power), we too easily lose our credibility before a watching world. We make the same mistake most Jewish people made at Jesus’ first coming: we expect a military hero who will give us a physical kingdom on earth. Like James and John, we jockey for important political positions. We don’t think we matter or are being given our “due” unless we are in power.

How does this damage our witness? The unchurched look at the Church of Jesus Christ and say to themselves, “Those Christians are part of all of the cynical power-mongering that everybody else is doing. But they’re even worse because they pretend they aren’t that way. They’re judgmental and they ignore their own faults. They never listen and spend all their time proclaiming how they are right.”
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Valerie
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:
Valerie wrote:This exchange is good- I would ask, if I may- the definition of 'idolatry' in this context please?
Worth reading: Joining a Political Party: Idolatry?
I don’t know much about the politics of other nations, but one of the persistent idolatries I notice in American politics is the constant and unquestioning worship of and loyalty to partisan ideology. I would like to argue in this post that absolute allegiance to any political party is antithetical to the Christian core creed, “Jesus is Lord.”
She compares our political situation to Paul's teaching in Romans 13, saying this:
In the context of a brutal, oppressive regime that demands idol worship, Paul’s words are really quite shocking. If you are an American and you think you are experiencing persecution, what you are experiencing ain’t nothin’ compared to what the Early Church faced! No one is threatening to have lions tear your flesh from your bones in front of a cheering, murderous audience. No one is sentencing you to public annihilation if you refuse to say an idol is God. So, surely we can agree that if Paul’s words apply to such a world as that of the Early Church, they certainly apply to us today in a country that enjoys significant freedom.
And she explains why Paul saw it that way:
You see, Paul was not concerned with providing the Church with earthly power and dominion. He was concerned with the spreading of the Gospel and maintaining the credibility of Christian witness. He realized that God uses situations of weakness to show His strength. Our Savior entered the world humbly and asks that His followers walk in His footsteps in the same manner. When Christians get intoxicated by political power (or any other kind of earthly power), we too easily lose our credibility before a watching world. We make the same mistake most Jewish people made at Jesus’ first coming: we expect a military hero who will give us a physical kingdom on earth. Like James and John, we jockey for important political positions. We don’t think we matter or are being given our “due” unless we are in power.

How does this damage our witness? The unchurched look at the Church of Jesus Christ and say to themselves, “Those Christians are part of all of the cynical power-mongering that everybody else is doing. But they’re even worse because they pretend they aren’t that way. They’re judgmental and they ignore their own faults. They never listen and spend all their time proclaiming how they are right.”
Okay- I understand- I don't necessarily agree with the assessment nor conclusions- and I think this is painting with a very broad brush- claiming to know what's in the heart of every Christian who does try to make a difference in the law of their land holding up more Godly values/laws is not the same thing as idolatry in my humble opinion on the matter, nor do I agree that it is all about being worried over losing rights and possibly being persecuted- probably there are many professing Christians who feel this concern or fear- but I would argue that some really believe that making a difference for the good of all and to keep God in focus, is God's will- and to keep Godly values and not legalize sin, doesn't make one an idolater but we have to have some ways and means to do this, because Romans 13 (as brought up here) is about keeping evil out as well.
I think as Christians though, the verbal battles that we can engage in over this makes it 'appear' like idolatry but there really is a righteous anger and concern going on in a lot of us that I wouldn't necessarily equate to 'idolatry'.
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Re: "Make America Great Again" - now a song for churches

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:... every Christian who does try to make a difference in the law of their land holding up more Godly values/laws is not the same thing as idolatry in my humble opinion on the matter, nor do I agree that it is all about being worried over losing rights and possibly being persecuted- probably there are many professing Christians who feel this concern or fear-
You have a point here - I think there are actually some Christians who are called to do this, at least from time to time. They are subject to special temptations. But most of the time, when we are exchanging opinions on forums, we are not making a difference in the law of the land, we don't really understand the issues in much depth, and we often seem to be spouting the talking points prepared by political factions - these talking points leak out into the media, people post them and often get upset if anyone questions them.

It's a lot like the kind of gossip you often hear if people are having problems in their marriage. Most people have only heard one side, they sympathize with one partner or the other, they quickly defend the one they prefer and demonize the other. The gossips don't have any responsibility for fixing the marriage, they don't even have the opportunity to hear each side out carefully and seek points of reconciliation or find ways to put the marriage on the right track again, the gossip is emotional and one sided, and it just pours gas on the fire.

So if you are a marriage counselor or someone with a concrete call to political advocacy, by all means, do what you are called for. But very little of the political heat in Christian circles is about that. And a good marriage counselor doesn't talk like a gossip. Christian political advocacy shouldn't sound like worldly political idolatry.
Valerie wrote:I would argue that some really believe that making a difference for the good of all and to keep God in focus, is God's will- and to keep Godly values and not legalize sin, doesn't make one an idolater but we have to have some ways and means to do this, because Romans 13 (as brought up here) is about keeping evil out as well.
To me, political debates rarely keep God in focus, rarely make a difference for the good of all, and rarely keep Godly values. They often make room for a great deal of sin. I do think there are ways to discuss these things that lead to greater understanding and can be edifying. If we are going to discuss these things, I think we need to do better at that. But to do so, we have to give everyone freedom to question the talking points we encounter in the media and on the internet, often talking points crafted by the political factions themselves and carefully placed (read the book "Trust me, I'm lying" to know what I am getting at).

What often happens is someone hits an emotional talking point, posts it, and attacks anyone who questions it. That is not a way to keep God in focus, keep Godly values, and make a difference for the good of all.

And for the most part, the way we make a difference is to find someone to serve in real life, not to post opinions on a forum.
Valerie wrote:I think as Christians though, the verbal battles that we can engage in over this makes it 'appear' like idolatry but there really is a righteous anger and concern going on in a lot of us that I wouldn't necessarily equate to 'idolatry'.
Righteous anger deserves a thread of its own. I do think righteous anger can be a very good thing - it says, "this has gone too far". But it can also be a cheap excuse to act out of anger. On balance, I usually find righteous anger useful as a motivator, but I also find that I sin a whole lot less when I remember to reflect and test myself before actually acting on that anger.
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