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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:00 pm
by Bootstrap
RZehr wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Who gets to decide what decent and honorable people believe, and which views are not held by decent and honorable people?
God does.
I can only repeat the entire paragraph:
That feels about right emotionally, but I am not sure how that translates into law. Who gets to decide what decent and honorable people believe, and which views are not held by decent and honorable people?
American law doesn't say God decides that. That's the problem. But it's also a great virtue for religious freedom. Sacralism has never panned out well for us, has it?

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:15 pm
by RZehr
I agree. I was just answering a rhetorical question.

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:35 pm
by Robert
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/02/0 ... udge-rules
A key factor in the decision was that the cake being requested by the couple was a custom job that was not regularly sold by the bakery.

The implication is that if the couple had requested a cake that was on display and routinely sold to other customers, it would be discriminatory to refuse to sell it to a gay couple on the basis of religious beliefs.

Here’s more from the ruling: “A wedding cake is not just a wedding cake in Free Speech analysis. It is an artistic expression by the person making it that is to be used traditionally as centerpiece in the celebration of marriage. There could not be greater form of expressive conduct.”

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:54 pm
by RZehr
So a “Christian” couldn’t go to a gay baker and request a cake with a hate filled anti-gay rant written on it either? Fair enough.

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:26 am
by Bootstrap
That's a lower court, of course, and it seems to be ruling on some of the same issues that the Supreme Court is now considering.

The decision on the Supreme Court case has not yet been released, and this is one of the more important religious freedom cases we are going to see for a long time. This is a great time to be praying. Whatever the legal theory, I am praying that the court will find a way to respect our religious freedom on this issue.
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:52 am
by RZehr
I looks to me that religious freedom isn't even being reinforced by this ruling other than as a byproduct. Looks to me that freedom of speech is really what the decision turned on. Which I don't think is nearly as robust a ruling for religion.

But I'm no lawyer.

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:23 am
by temporal1
RZehr wrote:I looks to me that religious freedom isn't even being reinforced by this ruling other than as a byproduct. Looks to me that freedom of speech is really what the decision turned on.
Which I don't think is nearly as robust a ruling for religion.

But I'm no lawyer.
i agree with you.
but, for purposes of government ruling, maybe this is the better way .. then, to leave it to churches and believers to (do our jobs) .. without over reliance on gov mandates? ..

unfortunately, once gov gets involved, so does taxpayer money, which ends with gov demands to comply with gov policies (on threat of losing funding!) .. it sadly becomes a vicious cycle.
and, somehow, God’s will definitely gets put to the side. :(

so, “be careful what you wish for,” remains relevant.

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:26 am
by Dan Z
If a customer to a Jewish deli wanted a BLT, is the deli required to provide bacon?

If a Jehovah's Witness family owned a bakery, are they forced to bake birthday cakes even though their faith doesn't celebrate birthdays?

Can a conservative Muslim custom dress maker be forced to make mini-skirts?

It's not that the deli is refusing to serve gentiles, or the JWs refuse serve people who were born, or the Muslim dressmaker is refusing to sell to people who like to show off their legs. IN other words, it is not about the person being served, it is about a religious person being asked to violate well-established religious principle.

In the same way, it is not about the gay person being served, it is about participating the wedding that violates the baker's religious principle. I would think a Conservative Mennonite baker might have the same issue making a wedding cake for a marriage of divorced people

I hope the Supremes get this one right. As of the last few decades, they generally have come down on the side of protecting religious liberty.

Regarding prayer - I'll pray that the Gospel does not get lost in the shadow of "hot button" social issues like this one.

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:28 am
by Bootstrap
temporal1 wrote:but, for purposes of government ruling, maybe this is the better way .. then, to leave it to churches and believers to (do our jobs) .. without over reliance on gov mandates? ..
I don't understand. What would that look like in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case?

Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:32 am
by temporal1
Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote:but, for purposes of government ruling, maybe this is the better way .. then, to leave it to churches and believers to (do our jobs) .. without over reliance on gov mandates? ..
I don't understand. What would that look like in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case?
if i’m understanding, i would be ok with the ruling to be on basis of free speech, and/or, freedom to worship. much like the California case.

the point being, not to enable reverse bullying under the guise of human rights.