Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

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MaxPC
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Post by MaxPC »

Dan Z wrote:If a customer to a Jewish deli wanted a BLT, is the deli requited to provide bacon?

If a Jehovah's Witness family owned a bakery, are they forced to bake birthday cakes even though their faith doesn't celebrate birthdays?

Can a conservative Muslim custom dress maker be forced to make mini-skirts?

It's not that the deli is refusing to serve gentiles, or the JWs refuse serve people who were born, or the Muslim dressmaker is refusing to sell to people who like to show off their legs. IN other words, it is not about the person being served, it is about a religious person being asked to violate well-established religious principle.

In the same way, it is not about the gay person being served, it is about participating the wedding that violates the baker's religious principle. I would think a Conservative Mennonite baker might have the same issue making a wedding cake for a marriage of divorced people

I hope the Supremes get this one right. As of the last few decades, they generally have come down on the side of protecting religious liberty.

Regarding prayer - I'll pray that the Gospel does not get lost in the shadow of "hot button" social issues like this one.
Spot on. God's will be done.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:I looks to me that religious freedom isn't even being reinforced by this ruling other than as a byproduct. Looks to me that freedom of speech is really what the decision turned on. Which I don't think is nearly as robust a ruling for religion.

But I'm no lawyer.
I'm not either, but Anthony Kennedy is, and he seems to agree with you, from what I can tell. In the oral arguments, he seemed to want to take this beyond freedom of speech, taking it more in the direction of mutual tolerance. If it's just a freedom of speech issue, then it applies only to those who engage in creative expression, but there are other reasons that Christians may not want to be involved in gay weddings.
Bootstrap wrote:I listened to the oral arguments in the case.

Kennedy will probably write the opinion, and he clearly wants to see tolerance flow both ways, and is trying to find a legal principle to fit that. To Colorado, which wanted to say Masterpiece must treat gay marriage the same as any other marriage, Kennedy said this:
Kennedy wrote:Counselor, tolerance is essential in a free society. And tolerance is most meaningful when it's mutual.

It seems to me that the state in its position here has been neither tolerant nor respectful of Mr. Phillips' religious beliefs.
To the lawyer for the baker, he asked a similarly challenging question:
Kennedy wrote:If you prevail, could the baker put a sign in his window, we do not bake cakes for gay weddings?
!!! SNIP !!!
And you would not think that an affront to the gay community?
I like the idea of tolerance flowing both ways, and would love to see them find a legal standard for that. I'm not sure what that would be.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote:but, for purposes of government ruling, maybe this is the better way .. then, to leave it to churches and believers to (do our jobs) .. without over reliance on gov mandates? ..
I don't understand. What would that look like in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case?
if i’m understanding, i would be ok with the ruling to be on basis of free speech, and/or, freedom to worship. much like the California case.

the point being, not to enable reverse bullying under the guise of human rights.
I agree. It's going to take the wisdom of Solomon to find the right way to do this legally, though. Which is why I am urging prayer in this thread, it's an important case for us.
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MaxPC
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

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[bible]Matthew 5, 43-46[/bible]
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

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mike
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

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Today, the Supreme Court has decided the case in favor of the Colorado baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding.
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

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mike wrote:Today, the Supreme Court has decided the case in favor of the Colorado baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding.
Praise God.
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MaxPC
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Post by MaxPC »

Dan Z wrote:
In the same way, it is not about the gay person being served, it is about participating the wedding that violates the baker's religious principle. I would think a Conservative Mennonite baker might have the same issue making a wedding cake for a marriage of divorced people

I hope the Supremes get this one right. As of the last few decades, they generally have come down on the side of protecting religious liberty.

Regarding prayer - I'll pray that the Gospel does not get lost in the shadow of "hot button" social issues like this one.
Hopes fulfilled and prayers answered, thanks be to God. Votes fell 7 to 2, in favor of the baker.
Justice Kennedy:
Kennedy said the commission showed a clear and impermissible hostility toward the sincere religious beliefs motivating Phillips’s objections to making the custom cake.

Kennedy said comments during public hearings before the commission in the case disparaged Phillips’s faith as despicable and compared his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust.

“This sentiment is inappropriate for a commission charged with the solemn responsibility of fair and neutral enforcement of Colorado’s anti-discrimination law — a law that protects discrimination on the basis of religion as well as sexual orientation,” Kennedy said.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

Post by Bootstrap »

At first blush, this looks like a very narrow ruling - this does not yet protect wedding photographers, for instance, and might not protect cake bakers in other circumstances.

So far, it doesn't even seem to say that it was constitutional for the baker to refuse the request. Maybe it does, I don't quickly see where. What I see says the basis for the ruling is that Colorado was hostile and inconsistent in the way that they dealt with the baker, and that he was entitled to impartial treatment. That leaves a lot of the most fundamental issues open.

Masterpiece Cakeshop

They reached a narrow decision that covers this particular case, indicating that there are a lot of thorny issues that will need to be figured out in further cases. It describes some specific thorny scenarios without saying how they would rule on them.
If a baker refused to design a special cake with words or images celebrating the marriage—for instance, a
cake showing words with religious meaning—that might be different from a refusal to sell any cake at all. In defining whether a baker’s creation can be protected, these details might make a difference.

The same difficulties arise in determining whether a baker has a valid free exercise claim. A baker’s refusal to
attend the wedding to ensure that the cake is cut the right way, or a refusal to put certain religious words or decorations on the cake, or even a refusal to sell a cake that has been baked for the public generally but includes certain religious words or symbols on it are just three examples of possibilities that seem all but endless.

Whatever the confluence of speech and free exercise principles might be in some cases, the Colorado Civil
Rights Commission’s consideration of this case was inconsistent with the State’s obligation of religious neutrality.
So ... there are still "endless possibilities" where religious freedom and gay marriage collide, and there will be future cases.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Wedding Cake Case in Supreme Court

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mike wrote:Today, the Supreme Court has decided the case in favor of the Colorado baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding.
Thanks be to God!
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