Meanwhile, back in the United States ...

[Bootstrap]

Would you mind telling us exactly what political alignment you are alleging is doing things like burning American flags?

Josh, I really would like this thread to be about recent acts of arson or violence directed at houses of worship in the United States. I request that all other topics be taken elsewhere. I also request that we refrain from any discussion of "which political side is better", this thread is not about that.

So far, you are objecting to discussion of the article in the OP. You have said nothing at all about it. If you don't want to discuss it, no need to participate in this thread. But please do stop your heckling.

[Ken]

It is surprisingly difficult to find recent data on church arsons in the US.

Here is a Wikipedia page with dated information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_arson

Here is a Pew Report from 2015 that says 52% of all church fires were arson: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... re-arsons/

By contrast, here is an ABC News Report, also from 2015 which says that only 16% of church fires are arsons: https://abcnews.go.com/US/16-percent-am ... d=32163601

And here is a Washington Post report, also from 2015 which also repeats the 16% figure and gives this graphic. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... you-think/ There is also some discussion about how historically it was Black churches that were much more frequent targets of arson but that currently the national data on church burnings doesn't parse the data by the race of the congregants so we really don't know what it is today:

[JohnHurt]

Would you mind telling us exactly what political alignment you are alleging is doing things like burning American flags?

Josh, I really would like this thread to be about recent acts of arson or violence directed at houses of worship in the United States. I request that all other topics be taken elsewhere. I also request that we refrain from any discussion of "which political side is better", this thread is not about that.

So far, you are objecting to discussion of the article in the OP. You have said nothing at all about it. If you don't want to discuss it, no need to participate in this thread. But please do stop your heckling.

But this is an American thread. It's happening here, too. With swastikas and American flags.

Apparently, Josh asked the right question. That was a great dodge.

What I find amazing is that the people running the Judicial system are unable to catch the people responsible for these fires, or even line up a good "believable" patsy to take the fall.

It appears obvious that these fires are a "false flag" that is somehow benefiting the power structure, otherwise the perpetrators would be apprehended.

Here is a good example of a false flag:

Jewish suspects arrested over swastika graffiti on synagogues
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-su ... ynagogues/

And there are a lot more cases of people vandalizing their own institutions for political purposes.

My question for everyone, just to "stay on topic", is who benefits from these fires, along with incriminating swastikas and flags being burned as "evidence" to get us to think a certain way?

If you can figure out who benefits, you will find the real culprit. And it ain't the Nazis.

[Bootstrap]

Would you mind telling us exactly what political alignment you are alleging is doing things like burning American flags?

Josh, I really would like this thread to be about recent acts of arson or violence directed at houses of worship in the United States. I request that all other topics be taken elsewhere. I also request that we refrain from any discussion of "which political side is better", this thread is not about that.

So far, you are objecting to discussion of the article in the OP. You have said nothing at all about it. If you don't want to discuss it, no need to participate in this thread. But please do stop your heckling.

But this is an American thread. It's happening here, too. With swastikas and American flags.

Apparently, Josh asked the right question. That was a great dodge.

No, the dodge is to refuse to discuss the topic of this thread.

My question for everyone, just to "stay on topic", is who benefits from these fires, along with incriminating swastikas and flags being burned as "evidence" to get us to think a certain way?

If you can figure out who benefits, you will find the real culprit. And it ain't the Nazis.

Well, that's one way to interpret the significance of the swastikas. Another possibility is that they really are intended to communicate hostility towards Jews or people who are not white. So how can we tell? One way is to look at the crimes themselves and the public information that is currently available.

Here's one place to start:

https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/hate ... e-examples

We can go through these one at a time and learn from them. For instance:

After two months of trial, a federal jury in Pittsburgh unanimously recommended that a Pennsylvania man be sentenced to death for killing 11 people at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, critically wounding seven others, including five responding police officers.

On October 27, 2018, the assailant entered the Tree of Life Synagogue during worship with multiple firearms and stated his desire to “kill Jews.” He shot and killed 11 congregants, injuring two other members of the congregation and five law enforcement officers. Evidence showed that the defendant meticulously planned his attack based on his violently antisemitic beliefs, reflected in dozens of online posts.

Press Release: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/jury-rec ... e-shooting

Additional Charges Filed: https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdpa/pr/ad ... shooting-0

Let's look at those links. Here's one:

The evidence in this trial proved that the defendant acted because of white supremacist, anti-Semitic and bigoted views that unfortunately are not original or unique to him,” said U.S. Attorney Eric Olshan for the Western District of Pennsylvania. “Our Constitution protects a person’s right to hold repugnant beliefs. But our Constitution also protects every person’s right to practice his or her faith. When people who espouse white supremacist, anti-Semitic, and bigoted views pick up weapons and use them to kill or try to kill people because of their faith, our Office and our partners in law enforcement will hold them accountable to the fullest extent of the law. Each and every time.”

The evidence showed that on Oct. 27, 2018, Bowers drove to the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, where members of the Tree of Life, Dor Hadash, and New Light Jewish congregations gathered to engage in religious worship. Bowers entered the building armed with multiple firearms, including three Glock .357 handguns and a Colt AR-15 rifle. While inside the Tree of Life Synagogue, Bowers opened fire, killing and injuring members of the three congregations, as well as injuring multiple responding police officers as they attempted to rescue surviving victims.

[Bootstrap]

Here's the next one on that site:

A Missouri man was sentenced to more than 15 years in prison, in addition to owing $551,217.91 in damages, for hate crime and arson violations after pleading guilty to burning down the Cape Girardeau Islamic Center in Cape Girardeau, Missouri.

On April 24, 2020, the first morning of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, at about 4:50 a.m., the defendant set fire to the Islamic Center at 298 Northwest End Boulevard, in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. Video showed him throwing multiple objects through the building’s glass window, causing it to break. He poured the contents of two gallon-sized containers throughout the foyer and down the hallway and then lit two fires that immediately spread through the inside of the building.

The Islamic Center suffered severe damage that rendered it unsuitable for use as a religious center. The defendant admitted that he set the fire because of the religious character of the building.

Press Release: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/missouri ... mic-center

Press Release: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/missouri ... mic-center

Following the links:

“This is the third time Nicholas Proffitt has attacked Islamic institutions, in Missouri and elsewhere,” said U.S. Attorney Sayler A. Fleming for the Eastern District of Missouri. “He has now been sentenced to a significant prison term that will protect the community from further persecution for a long time.”

“The right to pray as you wish is at the core of our nation’s ideals,” said ATF Director Steven Dettelbach. “When someone attacks a house of worship, they attack that American right, and they need to be help accountable. I commend the work of the ATF and all our federal partners in bringing this defendant to Justice.”

“Nicholas Proffitt destroyed a religious building, but he couldn’t take away the constitutional right to religious freedom,” said Special Agent in Charge Jay Greenberg of the FBI St. Louis Field Office. “The FBI’s mission is to protect the American people and uphold the U.S. Constitution.”

[Bootstrap]

Here are some links from the site in the OP, through November. Most of these are not yet solved, we do not know who did it.

January 7: Nativity scene vandalized, statues broken (Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church, Overbrook, PA) - https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/ne ... an-we-are/
2023

November 2023

November 29: Statue of St. Joseph toppled and broken in half, steps damaged (St. Mary of the Immaculate Conception Church, Indianapolis, IN) - https://www.wishtv.com/news/crime-watch ... nd-police/

November 22: Stained glass window broken, church ransacked (Our Lady of Guadalupe Mission, Irwindale, CA) - https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... -irwindale

November 11: Crude images spraypainted on exterior of church (St. Andrew Catholic Church, Eagle River, AK) - https://alaskawatchman.com/2023/11/16/v ... 18-months/

November 5: Paint splattered on front doors and signs (Cathedral of the Annunciation, Stockton, CA) - https://angelusnews.com/local/californi ... ized-hate/

November 1: Stained glass front doors smashed, satanic graffiti (Holy Family Catholic Church, Eastmoreland, OR) - https://www.thebeenews.com/news/eastmor ... ae962.html

November 1: Statues of Sacred Heart of Jesus and St. Francis of Assisi broken (Sacred Heart Roman Catholic Church, Staten Island, NY) - https://www.silive.com/crime-safety/202 ... ating.html

[Josh]

Arson attacks happen regularly in a country of 330 million. There is no evidence they are coming from a particular political alignment. A few of them have graffiti with anti-Christian slogans, etc., but most of them simply just seem to have graffiti to be offensive.

I don't want to allege the OP had a specific agenda for this, but I feel like there was an attempt to try paint anyone politically to the right of the OP as somehow being complicit in these church burnings. Which seems rather absurd. As JohnHurt documented, some church burnings were purportedly from leftist agitators. Still others are "false flag" attacks where people who belong to a particular group decide to burn down and deface their own group's houses of worship. This is actually really common in these kind of arson attacks and is often the first place the police will look, and why is it even more critical not to try to run and make political hay out of these arson attacks.

[Bootstrap]

I don't want to allege the OP had a specific agenda for this, but I feel like there was an attempt to try paint anyone politically to the right of the OP as somehow being complicit in these church burnings.

Ummm, no. The vast majority of Americans are not complicit in these church arsons, across the political spectrum. I assume you did not commit these crimes. I would think you have no need to defend those who do. i assume that most people on the right do not identify with swastikas or people who commit hate crimes.

This is precisely how I went about doing the OP:

1. Googling for information on church arson, I hit a page from the US Catholic Bishops that talks about arson against Catholic churches in the United States.
2. I read the page. That made me think it's not just Canada.
3. I copied the summary paragraph from their main page and posted it in the OP, basically without commentary.

There are, in fact, hate crimes in America. Some of them are committed against churches. If you are offended by any discussion that mentions swastikas, I suggest we launch a new thread to discuss why that is. In this thread, it's OK to discuss whatever arson occurs, and that includes spray painted swastikas, which the bishops of the Catholic Church chose to mention in their one-paragraph summary.

[Bootstrap]

This is actually really common in these kind of arson attacks and is often the first place the police will look, and why is it even more critical not to try to run and make political hay out of these arson attacks.

We should definitely look at law enforcement summaries of these hate crimes. What have their investigations shown?

First off, religion accounts for 17.3% of all hate crimes in the United States:



Here's how that breaks down:

https://www.justice.gov/crs/highlights/ ... statistics

A total of 1,590 incidents related to religion were reported; the largest categories of religion included:

Anti-Jewish incidents: 51.4% of religion-related incidents
Anti-Sikh incidents: 11.6%
Anti-Islamic incidents: 9.6%
Anti-Catholic incidents: 6.1%
Anti-Eastern Orthodox (Russian, Greek, Other): 3.1%

Note that anti-Protestant hate crimes are much rarer. And FWIW, race and ethnicity are the reason for the lion's share of hate crimes.

In his op-ed, Bishop Dolan seems to believe that anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim, and anti-Catholic hate crimes have the same root.

[Josh]

There are, in fact, hate crimes in America. Some of them are committed against churches. If you are offended by any discussion that mentions swastikas, I suggest we launch a new thread to discuss why that is. In this thread, it's OK to discuss whatever arson occurs, and that includes spray painted swastikas, which the bishops of the Catholic Church chose to mention in their one-paragraph summary.

It's a big assumption that arson committed against churches is even a "hate crime". Arson happens for a lot of different reasons, but is usually an in-group activity.

More importantly, I'm not sure what spray-painted swastikas have to do with arson. Flammable aerosol cans?