Protecting unaccompanied minors at the border

[Josh]

America is not the kingdom of heaven, and the idea children need to be relocated to America first to be safe is patently absurd.

Most of the situation of “unaccompanied minors” is children being trafficked. I don’t support human trafficking.

[Bootstrap]

America is not the kingdom of heaven, and the idea children need to be relocated to America first to be safe is patently absurd.

But we "seek first the Kingdom of God". My last post focuses a lot on OUR role. And these children are ALREADY here, that's what the controversy is all about. I am also in favor of helping children in other countries, that's one focus of our giving.

Of course, America also has a role to play. You seem to think their role should be to erect an impenetrable wall and do nothing to help. Do you think Christians should advocate for that? Or perhaps I misunderstand your position. Please say what your position is if I got it wrong.

Most of the situation of “unaccompanied minors” is children being trafficked. I don’t support human trafficking.

If they are fleeing human trafficking, and we throw them back, that is supporting human trafficking.

So far, I'm not convinced that giving people a safe place is the same thing as forcing them into human trafficking. Some people are claiming they are worse off if they are allowed to live here. I would really like to see clear evidence for that.

[Josh]

Let me understand this correctly: if any children get trafficked over the border, you make the case “they are already here”, and then are steadfastly opposed to repatriating them where they are a citizen and presumably grew up and have family?

[Bootstrap]

Let me understand this correctly: if any children get trafficked over the border, you make the case “they are already here”,

If children are here, they are here. Is that controversial?

I don't know what "trafficked over the border" means in that sentence. Can you please clarify? If they are indeed trafficked, they should be helped, whether the trafficking is happening here or somewhere else.

... and then are steadfastly opposed to repatriating them where they are a citizen and presumably grew up and have family?

Huh?

I said that we should make sure they will be safe wherever they wind up. That may well require understanding what threats they face where. But some people do not have a safe place where they grew up.

How about you? How do you see this?

[Josh]

Let me understand this correctly: if any children get trafficked over the border, you make the case “they are already here”,

If children are here, they are here. Is that controversial?

I think we can make a useful definition of unlawful entries at the border and treat them differently than lawful entry.

I don't know what "trafficked over the border" means in that sentence. Can you please clarify? If they are indeed trafficked, they should be helped, whether the trafficking is happening here or somewhere else.

The best way to deal with trafficking is to get rid of the incentives to traffick. And their home countries usually aren’t in favour of human trafficking either.

Huh?

I said that we should make sure they will be safe wherever they wind up. That may well require understanding what threats they face where. But some people do not have a safe place where they grew up.

How about you? How do you see this?

There should be a presumption that other countries are safe, not just America. I’m not an American nationalist. I don’t think America is better than other countries.

The reasonable thing to do is to return children to their families and home country. Period.

[Bootstrap]

I said that we should make sure they will be safe wherever they wind up. That may well require understanding what threats they face where. But some people do not have a safe place where they grew up.

How about you? How do you see this?

There should be a presumption that other countries are safe, not just America. I’m not an American nationalist. I don’t think America is better than other countries.

The reasonable thing to do is to return children to their families and home country. Period.

I disagree. To me, the real issue is trafficking and abuse, not borders. It's all about keeping people safe. Children can be trafficked in the United States. They can also be trafficked in other countries. If a child is in danger of trafficking, I don't want to send that child back to any place where they are vulnerable.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that children are safe if we send them to the very place where they say they are endangered. We should not presume that these places are safe.

The reasonable thing to do is make sure children are safe. Period. If that's possible in their families and in their home country, great. But it's important to find out if that's possible.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I said that we should make sure they will be safe wherever they wind up. That may well require understanding what threats they face where. But some people do not have a safe place where they grew up.

How about you? How do you see this?

There should be a presumption that other countries are safe, not just America. I’m not an American nationalist. I don’t think America is better than other countries.

The reasonable thing to do is to return children to their families and home country. Period.

I disagree. To me, the real issue is trafficking and abuse, not borders. It's all about keeping people safe. Children can be trafficked in the United States. They can also be trafficked in other countries. If a child is in danger of trafficking, I don't want to send that child back to any place where they are vulnerable.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that children are safe if we send them to the very place where they say they are endangered. We should not presume that these places are safe.

The reasonable thing to do is make sure children are safe. Period. If that's possible in their families and in their home country, great. But it's important to find out if that's possible.

Did it ever occur to you that there is considerable coaching as to what to say, some of it by NGOs.

It would be up to their home government to insure their safety. We are not the cops of the world nor the CPS of the world. I consider it arrogant to assume we are the only ones that can get it right. Not to mention, they are just as vulnerable here as they would be in their home countries, perhaps more so, since they likely have family there.

[Bootstrap]

I disagree. To me, the real issue is trafficking and abuse, not borders. It's all about keeping people safe. Children can be trafficked in the United States. They can also be trafficked in other countries. If a child is in danger of trafficking, I don't want to send that child back to any place where they are vulnerable.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that children are safe if we send them to the very place where they say they are endangered. We should not presume that these places are safe.

The reasonable thing to do is make sure children are safe. Period. If that's possible in their families and in their home country, great. But it's important to find out if that's possible.

Did it ever occur to you that there is considerable coaching as to what to say, some of it by NGOs.

Yes, it did occur to me that someone needs to check their stories. Of course.

But surely you do not mean to imply that trafficking and victimization does not occur.

It would be up to their home government to insure their safety. We are not the cops of the world nor the CPS of the world. I consider it arrogant to assume we are the only ones that can get it right. Not to mention, they are just as vulnerable here as they would be in their home countries, perhaps more so, since they likely have family there.

What percent of children who are sent back wind up living safely with their families? What exactly happens to children who faced real threats at home and are sent back?

What if their families believe that they cannot keep their children safe? In countries where the police are sometimes aligned with the drug cartels? Are you saying that American governments have no responsibility whatsoever to help people who may be fleeing dangerous situations?

And as Christians, what about our role in all of this? At the end of everything, I would like to hear these words from my Savior:

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

[mike]

And as Christians, what about our role in all of this? At the end of everything, I would like to hear these words from my Savior:

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

That's an entirely different question than what government policy should be in regard to minors at the border. We as Christians aren't at the border dealing with the migrant crisis, and as far as I know, civilians can't perform official functions at the border. If they temporarily put them in secure places like cages or prisons for their own safety and to control the situation, it is somewhat understandable as long as their basic needs are being met. Where are they supposed to put them? Hotels or public housing where they can run away? It's not like the government is going out and collecting kids just to throw them in dog pens.

Now, if those who are hungry and thirsty and naked come across our path, no matter who we are, we help them. That's our job as Christians. Legal or illegal, alien or citizen. We are not obligated to help people break the law, but we are obligated to help the stranger at our door.

[Bootstrap]

And as Christians, what about our role in all of this? At the end of everything, I would like to hear these words from my Savior:

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

That's an entirely different question than what government policy should be in regard to minors at the border.

Yes - and I think I was careful to distinguish those two roles. "And as Christians ..." is a different role than the government.

But if we, as Christians, call on the public to deal with this one way or another, then that's on us, not on the government. The things we advocate for are also on us. If we encourage people to think and feel certain ways about the poor and vulnerable, that's also on us.

I think both Christians and governments should care about the safety of children.

We as Christians aren't at the border dealing with the migrant crisis, and as far as I know, civilians can't perform official functions at the border. If they temporarily put them in secure places like cages or prisons for their own safety and to control the situation, it is somewhat understandable as long as their basic needs are being met. Where are they supposed to put them? Hotels or public housing where they can run away? It's not like the government is going out and collecting kids just to throw them in dog pens.

Now, if those who are hungry and thirsty and naked come across our path, no matter who we are, we help them. That's our job as Christians. Legal or illegal, alien or citizen. We are not obligated to help people break the law, but we are obligated to help the stranger at our door.

There are some things civilians can help with. For instance:

https://evangelicalimmigrationtable.com ... co-border/

See "WAYS TO GET INVOLVED".

https://www.usccb.org/migrationministries

Catholic organizations along the U.S.-Mexico border, for example, may provide a meal, clean clothes, a shower, medical attention, and temporary shelter for newly arrived migrants. Some Catholic organizations also advise recently arrived migrants on the individual steps they can take to reunite with family or reach the location of their immigration proceedings. Catholic organizations provide resettlement and integration services to newly arrived refugees, helping them to find lawful employment, enroll children in school, learn English, and navigate life in their new communities. Clergy administer the Sacraments to those in immigration detention. Many Catholic organizations across the country provide services to noncitizens who have suffered human trafficking. Catholic organizations also provide affordable immigration legal services, helping qualified individuals to naturalize as U.S. citizens, prepare their cases for immigration court, and more. These programs are designed to assist noncitizens with navigating legal obligations placed upon them by the U.S. immigration system and to promote compliance with applicable laws.

And of course, we can help refugees who are given legal status through World Relief, Church World Service, and similar ministries. That's something I have done.