Why should one not support the judicial system?

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Ken
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

Post by Ken »

Bootstrap wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:03 am
Ken wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:51 pm Yes, the problems are easy to identify. But bring us solutions. What PRACTICAL solutions dues Stuntz suggest? More jury trials I see from the sentence you copied. But that is no solution at all unless we want to throw tens of billions of dollars at new public defenders around the country who can take cases to trial, in addition to all the additional judges, courtrooms, etc.
First off, I recommend reading the entire book if you want to understand the solutions he suggests. I can go back and reread it when I have time.

One significant emphasis is on policing. Fund police, train them, and hold them accountable for any wrongdoing. Prioritize serious crime - solve murders, even in rough neighborhoods, target the leaders of drug gangs. Work with neighborhoods and ensure them that protecting them is a serious priority for police. Build trust with the neighborhoods.

Because currently, many neighborhoods feel that the police just aren't there to protect them from serious crime. But they are there to put people in jail for fairly minor crimes where it's easy to catch people. And often, there are also financial incentives or performance incentives for police to do this.

One sound bite at a time ;->
So exactly the sort of thing I've been going on about here with respect to the poor training much of our police force gets that is overly focused on the use of force and not de-escalation and conflict resolution.

No arguments from me with any of that. I would point out that there are really two parts to the problem: (1) solving/punishing crimes when they do occur, and (2) prevention of crime in the first place.

I would argue that we generally overemphasize the former at the expense of the latter.
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Josh
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

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American police are outright experts at de-escalation; using force is quite rare, in comparison to how it is in much of the rest of the world. And American citizens have a lot of rights, much more so than places like even the UK or Australia.
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Robert
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

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Bootstrap wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2024 1:45 pm
Do you mean District Attorney?
Yes. Sorry for the error.
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Ken
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

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Josh wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:34 pm American police are outright experts at de-escalation; using force is quite rare, in comparison to how it is in much of the rest of the world. And American citizens have a lot of rights, much more so than places like even the UK or Australia.
You are wrong about that. The US has vastly higher rates of police shootings than any peer country. Sure if you compare to places like Iran, Somalia, or Brazil you will find lots of police shootings. But developed countries that the US compares itself to? Not so much

Image

Here is a more recent study coming to the same conclusion: https://www.rutgers.edu/news/fatal-poli ... er-nations
Fatal Police Shootings in the United States Are Higher and Training Is More Limited Than in Other Nations

A Rutgers study delves into why police lethality in the U.S. diverges from similar countries


Police in the U.S. deal with more diverse, distressed and aggrieved populations and are involved in more incidents involving firearms, but they average only five months of classroom training – the briefest among 18 countries examined in a Rutgers study.

According to the data, the United States’ fatal police shootings rate in 2019 (3.1 per million) was five and 22 times higher than Australia’s (0.64) and France’s (0.14), respectively.

Published in the Annual Review of Criminology, the study examined the rates of fatal police violence, including shootings and other violence in 18 countries while looking at factors like the treatment of minorities, gun homicides and police training duration. Rates of gun homicides and fatal police violence were extremely closely related (.97 correlation).

That said, gun homicides may be a proxy for another explanation, such as armed and hostile suspects. For example, the study found the U.S. had a high fatal police violence rate (3.4 per million) and a high rate of gun homicide (3.7 per 100,000) while Australia had a relatively high fatal police violence rate in 2019 (.7 per million) despite low rates of gun homicide (.14 per 100,000).

Countries that exhibit high fatal police violence rates – the U.S., Venezuela, Canada, Australia, Brazil, France and Belgium – are distinguished by their mistreatment of minorities or long-standing grievances and turmoil, said Paul Hirschfield, lead author of the study and an associate professor of sociology and director of the Criminal Justice Program at Rutgers.

“The institution of slavery was so massive in Brazil and the United States that the wounds that it inflicted, the benefits it conferred and the racial hierarchy and ideology that sustained it remained long after abolition and have indelibly shaped the contemporary social and institutional order,” said Hirschfield.

According to the study, the seven countries with the highest fatal police violence – Venezuela, Brazil, the U.S., Argentina, Chile, Canada and Australia (four of which – Venezuela, Brazil, Chile, and Argentina – have recent histories of authoritarian rule) – have roots in recent colonial domination that produced some form of ethnic cleansing. The top four fatal police violence countries – Venezuela, Brazil, United States and Argentina – practiced slavery until the second half of the 19th century.

The study suggests that the amount of police training and fatal police violence outcomes are closely related.

Belgian police, with a fatal police violence rate of .35 per million, receive eight months of training, while the National Police in France, with a lower .29 per million rate of fatal police violence, attend school for ten months.

Canada, meanwhile, with a fatal police violence rate of .9 per million, provides 26 weeks of training for its national police force, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and 24 weeks for Toronto police, its largest municipal force.

What is taught to police during the training, and not only the duration of the training makes a difference. In Brazil and Venezuela, militarized police forces receive extended training, but fatal police violence rates are extraordinarily high, in part because training models brutal methods and generally fails to teach restraint.

Hirschfield said countries that have low fatal police violence rates despite ethnic tensions and relatively short classroom training duration (the U.K.’s England and Wales, as well as Spain), high rates of distrust in the police (Spain), secretive national police organizations with roots in dictatorships (Spain and Chile) or a relatively decentralized policing system with strong local policing (Spain and Switzerland), do exist.

The study suggests that researchers delve into these divergent cases to examine how countries such as Chile and Spain – which are beset with rising crime or insecurity, inadequate public resources and secretive national police forces with roots in dictatorships – still manage to avoid high fatal police violence rates.

Hirschfield said these are “rather fertile grounds for refining both explanations of exceptionally lethal policing in the U.S. and theories of international variation in lethal policing more broadly.”
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

Post by barnhart »

Ken, I wouldn't place all the blame for police violence on the police, I see other contributing factors.
1. A culture of gun worship. More people own guns and believe guns to be sacral objects of power, safety and goodness, thus we shoot back more than the rest of the world.
2. A belief in power of rebellion to produce good. We are experiencing a movement to glorify the Jan 6 riot to stop the election. Fighting back is heroic
3. Idolatrous view of self will, we resist being told what to do because we believe that is the path to a good and powerful life.

Other societies have these factors as well but I propose they combine in the American society to form a unique policing challenge. As my Russian friend once observed, in Russia people are in jail for lack of freedom, in America they are in jail because too much freedom.
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Robert
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

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barnhart wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:41 am America they are in jail because too much freedom.
I would disagree. I do think there is a strong cultural component. Russia, because of their culture, does not have roving bands of gangs in the inner city shooting each other.

If you would take out the gang violence, which is a failure of city management, gun violence would drop massively in the US.
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

Post by steve-in-kville »

I respect the judicial system but in all likelihood would not participate beyond voting for candidates.
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barnhart
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

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Robert wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:34 am
barnhart wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:41 am America they are in jail because too much freedom.
I would disagree. I do think there is a strong cultural component. Russia, because of their culture, does not have roving bands of gangs in the inner city shooting each other.

If you would take out the gang violence, which is a failure of city management, gun violence would drop massively in the US.
Interesting perception. The people I know killed by gun violence were rural.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

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Ken wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2024 4:15 pm
Bootstrap wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:03 am First off, I recommend reading the entire book if you want to understand the solutions he suggests. I can go back and reread it when I have time.

One significant emphasis is on policing. Fund police, train them, and hold them accountable for any wrongdoing. Prioritize serious crime - solve murders, even in rough neighborhoods, target the leaders of drug gangs. Work with neighborhoods and ensure them that protecting them is a serious priority for police. Build trust with the neighborhoods.

Because currently, many neighborhoods feel that the police just aren't there to protect them from serious crime. But they are there to put people in jail for fairly minor crimes where it's easy to catch people. And often, there are also financial incentives or performance incentives for police to do this.

One sound bite at a time ;->
So exactly the sort of thing I've been going on about here with respect to the poor training much of our police force gets that is overly focused on the use of force and not de-escalation and conflict resolution.
Well, no. I agree that's important, but it's not even one of the things I mentioned in the paragraph.

And I think the things I mentioned are very important.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Why should one not support the judicial system?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:34 pm American police are outright experts at de-escalation; using force is quite rare, in comparison to how it is in much of the rest of the world. And American citizens have a lot of rights, much more so than places like even the UK or Australia.
That really varies wildly from one department to another.

I think we have something like 18,000 different law enforcement jurisdictions in the United States. That includes city police departments, county sheriff's offices, state police, state highway patrol, and federal law enforcement agencies. What they do in one place may be very different from what they do in another place.

On average, though, I don't think American police are "outright experts" at deescalation.
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