Sending migrants on buses, trains, and planes...

[Bootstrap]

There is good reason to bring up Hitler and Stalin in this kind of conversation, though.

No, there isn't. Any moral principle can be discussed without bringing up Hitler and Stalin.

Ah, but if we want to learn from history, we need to be able to discuss where this kind of thinking has led in the past. Including the KKK, Hitler, and Stalin.

If they can teach us to feel threatened whenever we think about refugees, if they can teach us to close our hearts, if they can teach us to approve when they are mean to people, they are winning and the Kingdom of God is losing. If we believe in loving our neighbors as ourselves, spreading false images about the poor and vulnerable in order to encourage people to close their hearts isn't doing that.

When you say things like "kids in cages" and "families forcibly separated", you are simply repeating partisan talking points. We both know that kids weren't put in cages. They did have to figure out what to do with unaccompanied minors. Simply releasing them into the general American public is not a good idea, particularly with overwhelming evidence of trafficking.

Kids in cages. Lots and lots of evidence that this happened. Dumping families on the streets in the middle of the night isn't this bad, but it's the same kind of "let's decide not to care about these people - and play politics with them".

And yes, families were forcibly separated. And Trump Administration officials even kind of bragged about that, saying it might send a message.

Not partisan talking points, simple statements of fact. Is it partisan to say we shouldn't throw kids in cages in ways that violate our own laws? As Christians, do we harden our hearts to this kind of thing, or do Christians have compassion?

[Josh]

If they can teach us to feel threatened whenever we think about refugees, if they can teach us to close our hearts, if they can teach us to approve when they are mean to people, they are winning and the Kingdom of God is losing. If we believe in loving our neighbors as ourselves, spreading false images about the poor and vulnerable in order to encourage people to close their hearts isn't doing that.

You keep trying to bring that up as if to be a good Christian, you somehow need to support unlimited migration, which is not the case. The original topic was whether or not places like Chicago could limit immigration to certain times of day, certain numbers of migrants per day, and so forth. Oddly enough, I am the one making the claim that they shouldn't and can't do that.

Kids in cages. Lots and lots of evidence that this happened.

No there isn't. That's entirely a political position. There may be some use of fences and so on temporary detention, but the idea kids are "caged" is simply a talking point used by people who are pro-unlimited-migration.

And yes, families were forcibly separated. And Trump Administration officials even kind of bragged about that, saying it might send a message.

As I said earlier, nobody has any idea what "families" are at the border, considering the large amount of human trafficking.

Not partisan talking points, simple statements of fact. Is it partisan to say we shouldn't throw kids in cages in ways that violate our own laws? As Christians, do we harden our hearts to this kind of thing, or do Christians have compassion?

As Christians, should we want to let human trafficking continue unchecked, or do we think it's a good idea to separate children from their traffickers and make sure they are safe?

[Bootstrap]

If they can teach us to feel threatened whenever we think about refugees, if they can teach us to close our hearts, if they can teach us to approve when they are mean to people, they are winning and the Kingdom of God is losing. If we believe in loving our neighbors as ourselves, spreading false images about the poor and vulnerable in order to encourage people to close their hearts isn't doing that.

You keep trying to bring that up as if to be a good Christian, you somehow need to support unlimited migration, which is not the case.

Wrong. I don't believe that and I have never said that. Could you please stop making up lies about me? That repeated pattern really affects the way I view you. Why not focus on saying what you believe and let me say what I believe?

I do think that Christians need to speak with compassion about the poor and vulnerable, no matter what policy choices we prefer. And I think Christians should be steer clear of smear campaigns and attempts to dehumanize people. Christians should have a heart of flesh, not a heart of stone. We should have the compassion that Jesus had.

Given the fact that these immigrants are people we should have compassion for, how do we think they should be treated? I think that's the right framing for Christians. And that's not what I see in your posts when we discuss immigrants. Without that, I don't know how to have a conversation as Christians. I can't see what is Christian about the things you are saying.

[Josh]

You keep trying to bring that up as if to be a good Christian, you somehow need to support unlimited migration, which is not the case.

Wrong. I don't believe that and I have never said that. Could you please stop making up lies about me? That repeated pattern really affects the way I view you.

OK, then I misunderstood your policy position.

But I do think that Christians need to speak with compassion about the poor and vulnerable, no matter what policy choices we prefer. And I think Christians should be steer clear of smear campaigns and attempts to dehumanize people. Christians should have a heart of flesh, not a heart of stone. We should have the compassion that Jesus had.

That has never been in doubt. Is there any disagreement on that point?

Given the fact that these immigrants are people we should have compassion for, how do we think they should be treated? I think that's the right framing for Christians. And that's not what I see in your posts when we discuss immigrants. Without that, I don't know how to have a conversation as Christians. I can't see what is Christian about the things you are saying.

I think they should be treated like everyone else who has broken the law (which, in America, is often quite generous, particularly compared with other countries).

I think it is perfectly fine for the government to investigate human traffickers. I think it's fine for them to make arrangements to make sure children are safe. I don't think it's fine at all to allow human traffickers to simply do whatever they want when they are moving unaccompanied minors across the border. And I think that's a quite Christian position to hold.

[Ernie]

Just because a city decides to be a sanctuary city, does not mean they need to be able to accept migrants at all hours and many bus loads at once.
There are many other large cities that are sanctuary cities that they can go to until their city of preference is ready to take them.

I help support and sponsor refugees, but I am not able to help more than a few at a time. If someone wants to be sponsored by me, they will need to wait their turn. If they want someone to sponsor them now, there are others in the US that can do that. Just because they want me to sponsor them on their terms does not mean I need to do what they want.

Yet the illegals come through the southern border at all hours and times. All this does is disperse the chaos at the border to other places that claim they want it. So if they do not want it, they need to change their laws and processes. Why should Texas have to accept illegals at all hours and overload it's system when it does not want it but sanctuary cities can restrict times and how illegals go to them? That sounds biased.

From a strategic position (not a Christian one), I think the US should provide more staffing at the border...
1. More patrol along the border and/or walls.
2. More staff at border crossings who can determine whether a person actually is in need, or just coming to the US for opportunity.
And the US could subcontract this work to the states if they wanted to.
This would take care of the chaos.

I don't want chaos at the border, nor chaos in the cities. I don't know of anyone who wants chaos at either place other than those who are politically motivated.

[Grace]

Kids in cages. Lots and lots of evidence that this happened. Dumping families on the streets in the middle of the night isn't this bad, but it's the same kind of "let's decide not to care about these people - and play politics with them".

The cages were built by Obama. Would you rather have the kids trafficked by evil cartels, the young girls raped, or cooked in a truck trailer? Cages do sound horrible, but I think that protecting the kids from evil people is still a better option, than having them abused by vile demonic men.

[Judas Maccabeus]

There is good reason to bring up Hitler and Stalin in this kind of conversation, though.

No, there isn't. Any moral principle can be discussed without bringing up Hitler and Stalin.

Ah, but if we want to learn from history, we need to be able to discuss where this kind of thinking has led in the past. Including the KKK, Hitler, and Stalin.

If they can teach us to feel threatened whenever we think about refugees, if they can teach us to close our hearts, if they can teach us to approve when they are mean to people, they are winning and the Kingdom of God is losing. If we believe in loving our neighbors as ourselves, spreading false images about the poor and vulnerable in order to encourage people to close their hearts isn't doing that.

When you say things like "kids in cages" and "families forcibly separated", you are simply repeating partisan talking points. We both know that kids weren't put in cages. They did have to figure out what to do with unaccompanied minors. Simply releasing them into the general American public is not a good idea, particularly with overwhelming evidence of trafficking.

Kids in cages. Lots and lots of evidence that this happened. Dumping families on the streets in the middle of the night isn't this bad, but it's the same kind of "let's decide not to care about these people - and play politics with them".

And yes, families were forcibly separated. And Trump Administration officials even kind of bragged about that, saying it might send a message.

Not partisan talking points, simple statements of fact. Is it partisan to say we shouldn't throw kids in cages in ways that violate our own laws? As Christians, do we harden our hearts to this kind of thing, or do Christians have compassion?

Look closely. Not everyone detained in those lockups are children. This may not be the best dentition facility, but do you let them go on the street? To be picked up by whom? In the company of whom?

My take is they should be sent back to their home countries, and as soon as possible.

[Jazman]

Kids in cages. Lots and lots of evidence that this happened. Dumping families on the streets in the middle of the night isn't this bad, but it's the same kind of "let's decide not to care about these people - and play politics with them".

The cages were built by Obama. Would you rather have the kids trafficked by evil cartels, the young girls raped, or cooked in a truck trailer? Cages do sound horrible, but I think that protecting the kids from evil people is still a better option, than having them abused by vile demonic men.

Most people coming here, illegal or not, don't fall into the hands of "vile demonic men..." Most end up with family and/or friends or sponsors already here. Where and from whom does this implied reasoning, 'let's be anti-immigrant/migrant in a GOP/Trumpian way, so that we can 'save' them...from "vile demonic men"? Interesting spin.

[Josh]

Most people coming here, illegal or not, don't fall into the hands of "vile demonic men..." Most end up with family and/or friends or sponsors already here. Where and from whom does this implied reasoning, 'let's be anti-immigrant/migrant in a GOP/Trumpian way, so that we can 'save' them...from "vile demonic men"? Interesting spin.

Are you saying there aren’t any criminals at all amongst the migrant population?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Kids in cages. Lots and lots of evidence that this happened. Dumping families on the streets in the middle of the night isn't this bad, but it's the same kind of "let's decide not to care about these people - and play politics with them".

The cages were built by Obama. Would you rather have the kids trafficked by evil cartels, the young girls raped, or cooked in a truck trailer? Cages do sound horrible, but I think that protecting the kids from evil people is still a better option, than having them abused by vile demonic men.

Most people coming here, illegal or not, don't fall into the hands of "vile demonic men..." Most end up with family and/or friends or sponsors already here. Where and from whom does this implied reasoning, 'let's be anti-immigrant/migrant in a GOP/Trumpian way, so that we can 'save' them...from "vile demonic men"? Interesting spin.

Nice in theory. But many/most of the unaccompanied minors are in the custody of trafficking gangs. These people are criminals. Are they the people who should determine where these are placed.


And you admit “most”. What about the rest? Ok for them to wind up cleaning cutters in meat plants at night?

They simply need to be sent home ASAP. That is what is safe.