Sending migrants on buses, trains, and planes...

[Ernie]

If a migrant who is experiencing danger, persecution for righteousness, a health crisis,

Just thought about this. I recall, that for some reason in my previous life, I did an awful lot of "immigrants " that did not have any form of ID except a passport or a counselor card. This was pre-Obamacare, so we were turning away Americans that lacked insurance. Since I did oncology, you could easily go over 100K on a patient's treatment. Yet American's were turned away, no insurance, until they became emergencies. It was an absurd system.

Now, healthcare resources are limited here in the US. Some bedrock oncology drugs are currently being rationed, there is not enough to go around. Just try getting Cisplatin, it is on shortage and has been on shortage.https://www.ashp.org/drug-shortages/cur ... OCheckOnly. There are limited slots for care just about anywhere. When it says "select alternative regime" that is normally not the one the oncologist would prefer.

SO, should we offer free (And that is what it normally winds up being) treatment to those who cross our borders to get access to our healthcare system?

My take on it is NO. We have limited resources, but logistically and financially. While I would love to be the hospital to the third world, this is not feasible. It cannot be done without breaking the system. Every one of these people who you care for, represents a budgetary hole you must plug elsewhere. It gets plugged by delaying/denying our own.

I get your point. But the reason for the shortage again goes back to politics. There are lots of doctors and nurses that would like to work in the US and if we would give the undocumented work permits, they would pay for the extra doctors and nurses via taxes and insurance.

[HondurasKeiser]

People don't "take jobs" they create them. With more people comes more demand for, well, everything.

That doesn't jive with actual reality. What actually happens is a flood of migrants means a lot more drain on social services, far more than the migrants can afford to pay in.

If having more migrants caused some kind of economic miracle, then the places migrants are leaving would also have a strong economy.

I would think the golden rule would be a good place to start when we considered people who are moving, that is migrating. How would I want to be treated if I were in their shoes?

I would never be in the position of being a wealthy factory owner who nonetheless borrows $8,000 in order to illegally migrate to another country via multiple plane trips in order to seek more opportunities to acquire even more wealth.

And yet there is a compelling argument that immigration has historically driven, and remains the driver of, US economy. And that the distinction between the USA, and the economic backwash of Europe, is our quite liberal immigration policies.

So do you agree or disagree with the golden rule? That is, picture what life would be like for you were you an immigrant (well actually you are I believe =), and if you would want to freedom to move to provide better for yourself and our family.

You make too much of the effects of immigration or non-immigration, in the case of Europe. Cheap labor is important in the capitalist system but certainly not the driver. That, I think would be capital (private property).

I think immigration is a good thing but a country is by no means beholden to accept everyone that decides to pop on over. I would echo Josh in saying that a country, in the normal course of events, ought to think first and foremost about the well-being of its citizens. While immigration is good, mass immigration is not an unalloyed good. There are downsides and one ought to consider those when forming immigration policy.

To your later post, as of yet we don’t live in a border-less, one-world dystopia. Borders exist because nations exist. I’d say that’s a good thing. Personally, I don’t want MS13 and 18 Gang members, fleeing Bukele’s El Salvador to be be able to simply hop on over to Honduras, unhindered and unobstructed. I am thankful that the God-ordained authority in Honduras has seen fit to maintain its borders and keep those people out.

[HondurasKeiser]

If a migrant who is experiencing danger, persecution for righteousness, a health crisis,

Just thought about this. I recall, that for some reason in my previous life, I did an awful lot of "immigrants " that did not have any form of ID except a passport or a counselor card. This was pre-Obamacare, so we were turning away Americans that lacked insurance. Since I did oncology, you could easily go over 100K on a patient's treatment. Yet American's were turned away, no insurance, until they became emergencies. It was an absurd system.

Now, healthcare resources are limited here in the US. Some bedrock oncology drugs are currently being rationed, there is not enough to go around. Just try getting Cisplatin, it is on shortage and has been on shortage.https://www.ashp.org/drug-shortages/cur ... OCheckOnly. There are limited slots for care just about anywhere. When it says "select alternative regime" that is normally not the one the oncologist would prefer.

SO, should we offer free (And that is what it normally winds up being) treatment to those who cross our borders to get access to our healthcare system?

My take on it is NO. We have limited resources, but logistically and financially. While I would love to be the hospital to the third world, this is not feasible. It cannot be done without breaking the system. Every one of these people who you care for, represents a budgetary hole you must plug elsewhere. It gets plugged by delaying/denying our own.

I get your point. But the reason for the shortage again goes back to politics. There are lots of doctors and nurses that would like to work in the US and if we would give the undocumented work permits, they would pay for the extra doctors and nurses via taxes and insurance.

Who are the undocumented nurses and doctors that you know of trying and failing to obtain legal visas?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Just thought about this. I recall, that for some reason in my previous life, I did an awful lot of "immigrants " that did not have any form of ID except a passport or a counselor card. This was pre-Obamacare, so we were turning away Americans that lacked insurance. Since I did oncology, you could easily go over 100K on a patient's treatment. Yet American's were turned away, no insurance, until they became emergencies. It was an absurd system.

Now, healthcare resources are limited here in the US. Some bedrock oncology drugs are currently being rationed, there is not enough to go around. Just try getting Cisplatin, it is on shortage and has been on shortage.https://www.ashp.org/drug-shortages/cur ... OCheckOnly. There are limited slots for care just about anywhere. When it says "select alternative regime" that is normally not the one the oncologist would prefer.

SO, should we offer free (And that is what it normally winds up being) treatment to those who cross our borders to get access to our healthcare system?

My take on it is NO. We have limited resources, but logistically and financially. While I would love to be the hospital to the third world, this is not feasible. It cannot be done without breaking the system. Every one of these people who you care for, represents a budgetary hole you must plug elsewhere. It gets plugged by delaying/denying our own.

I get your point. But the reason for the shortage again goes back to politics. There are lots of doctors and nurses that would like to work in the US and if we would give the undocumented work permits, they would pay for the extra doctors and nurses via taxes and insurance.

Who are the undocumented nurses and doctors that you know of trying and failing to obtain legal visas?

Most foreign training is not even close to US standards. Except for a few countries (Nurses from certain schools in the Philippines , doctors from parts of the EU, nurses from the UK). they simply cannot be licensed at all. Do not get me started on nurses from India, the ones we worked with in the UAE were horrible. Jordan and Egypt, just as bad. We just cannot let these loose in the US, at least not without a year of more of additional training, if they can pass the national boards at all!

[Ernie]

Just thought about this. I recall, that for some reason in my previous life, I did an awful lot of "immigrants " that did not have any form of ID except a passport or a counselor card. This was pre-Obamacare, so we were turning away Americans that lacked insurance. Since I did oncology, you could easily go over 100K on a patient's treatment. Yet American's were turned away, no insurance, until they became emergencies. It was an absurd system.

Now, healthcare resources are limited here in the US. Some bedrock oncology drugs are currently being rationed, there is not enough to go around. Just try getting Cisplatin, it is on shortage and has been on shortage.https://www.ashp.org/drug-shortages/cur ... OCheckOnly. There are limited slots for care just about anywhere. When it says "select alternative regime" that is normally not the one the oncologist would prefer.

SO, should we offer free (And that is what it normally winds up being) treatment to those who cross our borders to get access to our healthcare system?

My take on it is NO. We have limited resources, but logistically and financially. While I would love to be the hospital to the third world, this is not feasible. It cannot be done without breaking the system. Every one of these people who you care for, represents a budgetary hole you must plug elsewhere. It gets plugged by delaying/denying our own.

I get your point. But the reason for the shortage again goes back to politics. There are lots of doctors and nurses that would like to work in the US and if we would give the undocumented work permits, they would pay for the extra doctors and nurses via taxes and insurance.

Who are the undocumented nurses and doctors that you know of trying and failing to obtain legal visas?

Sorry, I didn't write that clearly.

People from around the world would like to be doctors and nurses in the US but can't.

Undocumented migrants in the US who do not have a work permit do not pay income tax and buy health insurance. If the US would give these folks work permits, it would mean lots more money flowing into the coffers until they get their day before an immigration judge in 5 or 10 years.

[Ernie]

Most foreign training is not even close to US standards. Except for a few countries (Nurses from certain schools in the Philippines , doctors from parts of the EU, nurses from the UK). they simply cannot be licensed at all. Do not get me started on nurses from India, the ones we worked with in the UAE were horrible. Jordan and Egypt, just as bad. We just cannot let these loose in the US, at least not without a year of more of additional training, if they can pass the national boards at all!

Getting a year or two of training in the US and then letting them work here would result in more money flowing into the treasury coffers.

[Josh]

Anyone can buy health insurance, regardless of immigration status. I myself have done this when travelling to other countries. If immigrants don’t have health insurance, it’s because they choose not to.

Virtually any qualified doctor or nurse can get a skilled migrant visa and migrate into the U.S.; they just need to find an employer willing to sponsor and hire them, which right now is not particularly difficult.

Illegal aliens can also voluntarily pay taxes on income they earn. There is nothing stopping them from doing so. Many of them simply choose not to. You don’t need a work permit to file and pay taxes.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Anyone can buy health insurance, regardless of immigration status. I myself have done this when travelling to other countries. If immigrants don’t have health insurance, it’s because they choose not to.

Virtually any qualified doctor or nurse can get a skilled migrant visa and migrate into the U.S.; they just need to find an employer willing to sponsor and hire them, which right now is not particularly difficult.

Illegal aliens can also voluntarily pay taxes on income they earn. There is nothing stopping them from doing so. Many of them simply choose not to. You don’t need a work permit to file and pay taxes.

Operant word is qualified. Most third world doctors are not even close. Requires passing an exam, doing a three year residency, than passing another exam. The so called “fifth pathway “ closed forever in 2009.

A “skilled migrant visa” could be a possibility for nurses from some countries. For doctors, “qualified doctor “ means virtually no one that is ineligible for a license to practice.

In my former work, I was aware of an Egyptian physician who somehow got a green card. He thought he could get a license to practice medicine. Wrong. Tried getting a license as a Nuclear Medicine Technologist. They let him work as a clinical assistant while his application was pending. He kept telling us “in Egypt I was a surgeon….” Finally I had enough, and told him if he wants to be a surgeon, and wants people to follow his instructions, go back to Egypt. His application was denied, no training or experience that is required for licensing. They dismissed him.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Most foreign training is not even close to US standards. Except for a few countries (Nurses from certain schools in the Philippines , doctors from parts of the EU, nurses from the UK). they simply cannot be licensed at all. Do not get me started on nurses from India, the ones we worked with in the UAE were horrible. Jordan and Egypt, just as bad. We just cannot let these loose in the US, at least not without a year of more of additional training, if they can pass the national boards at all!

Getting a year or two of training in the US and then letting them work here would result in more money flowing into the treasury coffers.

Since the “fifth pathway” closed, it is at least three years. Have to pass a test to get into residency, and one when you get out.

I am sure you are thinking about those medical schools in the Caribbean. Most of the students transfer to a u.s. school after their third year. Hence, they are u.s. grads.

[HondurasKeiser]

Most foreign training is not even close to US standards. Except for a few countries (Nurses from certain schools in the Philippines , doctors from parts of the EU, nurses from the UK). they simply cannot be licensed at all. Do not get me started on nurses from India, the ones we worked with in the UAE were horrible. Jordan and Egypt, just as bad. We just cannot let these loose in the US, at least not without a year of more of additional training, if they can pass the national boards at all!

Getting a year or two of training in the US and then letting them work here would result in more money flowing into the treasury coffers.

Since the “fifth pathway” closed, it is at least three years. Have to pass a test to get into residency, and one when you get out.

I am sure you are thinking about those medical schools in the Caribbean. Most of the students transfer to a u.s. school after their third year. Hence, they are u.s. grads.

Just anecdotally; I remember growing up there were a few, maybe 3 or 4, Syrian immigrant families in my town and most of the fathers of those families were surgeons. One was a neurosurgeon Dr. Rajjoub and the other Dr. Tuffaha a cardiologist I believe. The internet tells me they were trained in Damascus and Cairo respectively. They got visas to escape violence in Syria and began practicing in Williamsport, Pa almost immediately.