Ukraine: Trump, Biden

[Bootstrap]

Another topic that keeps coming up in election the investigations thread: the claim that Ukraine would be in much better shape under Trump. This topic apparently needs a home too.

But Trump praised Putin for invading:

“I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,’ ” Mr. Trump said during the radio interview “Putin declares a big portion of of Ukraine, Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful. So, Putin is now saying, ‘It’s independent,’ a large section of Ukraine. I said, ‘How smart is that?’”

I don't think Trump ever said what he would have done to prevent the invasion. Now he says he could settle the dispute in 24 hours, and Putin says that's great. Zelensky doesn't seem to agree. I'm not convinced Zelensky thinks Trump would be better for Ukraine ...

[Bootstrap]

Also worth remembering: the first impeachment was about Trump withholding military aid that Ukraine needed to defend itself against Russia.

Trump wanted Ukraine to make a public announcement that it was investigating Joe Biden, during the election, obviously in order to influence the election. The announcement was what he wanted before releasing military aid - not an actual investigation. No guidelines were given for an actual investigation. This did not happen in public or transparently. It was not done through official channels such as ambassadors. The ambassadors testified that they saw this as wrongdoing.

That also makes me reluctant to believe that Ukraine would be in better shape under Trump.

[Grace]

Another topic that keeps coming up in election the investigations thread: the claim that Ukraine would be in much better shape under Trump. This topic apparently needs a home too.

But Trump praised Putin for invading:

“I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,’ ” Mr. Trump said during the radio interview “Putin declares a big portion of of Ukraine, Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful. So, Putin is now saying, ‘It’s independent,’ a large section of Ukraine. I said, ‘How smart is that?’”

I don't think Trump ever said what he would have done to prevent the invasion. Now he says he could settle the dispute in 24 hours, and Putin says that's great. Zelensky doesn't seem to agree. I'm not convinced Zelensky thinks Trump would be better for Ukraine ...

Taken way out of context. Trump was being sarcastic about Putin's military Strategy. Because later in the same interview he said, "By the way, this NEVER would have happened with us. Had I been in office, not even thinkable". "This would never have happened".

[Bootstrap]

Taken way out of context. Trump was being sarcastic about Putin's military Strategy. Because later in the same interview he said, "By the way, this NEVER would have happened with us. Had I been in office, not even thinkable". "This would never have happened".

Yes, he made that claim.

But when Russia invaded Ukraine the first time, in 2014, under Trump's watch, Trump repeated Kremlin propaganda, saying, "The people of Crimea, from what I've heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were." He also praised Putin for doing "an amazing job of taking the mantle" when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Crimea has been crucial in this war, it is the naval base that Russia relies on to block Ukraine in. And the bridge they built to Crimea is a critical supply line for arms. That's all in Ukrainian territory taken under Trump.

So if Trump praised Russia and did nothing when they invaded Ukraine the first time, why should I believe it would be different the second time around?

And what exactly would he have done to prevent the second invasion? How is that different from what he did to prevent the first invasion in 2014?

[Josh]

Yes, he made that claim.

But when Russia invaded Ukraine the first time, in 2014, under Trump's watch, Trump repeated Kremlin propaganda, saying, "The people of Crimea, from what I've heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were." He also praised Putin for doing "an amazing job of taking the mantle" when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Crimea has been crucial in this war, it is the naval base that Russia relies on to block Ukraine in. And the bridge they built to Crimea is a critical supply line for arms. That's all in Ukrainian territory taken under Trump.

So if Trump praised Russia and did nothing when they invaded Ukraine the first time, why should I believe it would be different the second time around?

And what exactly would he have done to prevent the second invasion? How is that different from what he did to prevent the first invasion in 2014?

Wasn't Obama the President in 2014?

Obama: Putin invades Crimea (and wins) in 2014.

2016 - 2020 was an unusual time in America's recent history: no wars, no invasions, but a peace treaty was brokered in the Middle East. Putin did not engage in any expansion.

Biden: Putin invades Novorossiya (and is still there) in 2020.

Putin may want to make sure candidates like Obama and Biden keep winning, as they seem to be a prerequisite for his expansionism.

[Ken]

Yes, he made that claim.

But when Russia invaded Ukraine the first time, in 2014, under Trump's watch, Trump repeated Kremlin propaganda, saying, "The people of Crimea, from what I've heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were." He also praised Putin for doing "an amazing job of taking the mantle" when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Crimea has been crucial in this war, it is the naval base that Russia relies on to block Ukraine in. And the bridge they built to Crimea is a critical supply line for arms. That's all in Ukrainian territory taken under Trump.

So if Trump praised Russia and did nothing when they invaded Ukraine the first time, why should I believe it would be different the second time around?

And what exactly would he have done to prevent the second invasion? How is that different from what he did to prevent the first invasion in 2014?

Wasn't Obama the President in 2014?

Obama: Putin invades Crimea (and wins) in 2014.

2016 - 2020 was an unusual time in America's recent history: no wars, no invasions, but a peace treaty was brokered in the Middle East. Putin did not engage in any expansion.

Biden: Putin invades Novorossiya (and is still there) in 2020.

Putin may want to make sure candidates like Obama and Biden keep winning, as they seem to be a prerequisite for his expansionism.

One can certainly make the argument that the less than vigorous response to the Russian invasion in 2014 by both the Obama Administration and the EA/NATO encouraged Putin to try and take another bite out of the apple in 2022. Many people have made that argument.

I expect the larger context in 2014 was that both the US and NATO were engaged in Afghanistan, Syria, and Iraq in 2014 and didn't have the appetite to engage in yet another conflict. The US and Europe did sanction Russia for the invasion of Crimea and incursions into the Donbass in 2014 but to a much weaker extent than they did in 2022.

In any event, 2016 to 2020 wasn't any sort of period of peace.

The US was directly engaged in both Syria and Afghanistan during that entire time, spending tens of billions and having troops deployed to conflict zones in each of those countries. The US was also involved in various proxy wars in Africa during this time as well.

In addition, the US was directly engaged in a proxy war in Yemen during 2016 to 2020 by virtue of providing Saudi Arabia hundreds of billions of dollars worth of weaponry that was being used in Yemen. That is really no different from today when we are sending weapons to Ukraine. In both cases it is US weaponry being used in a foreign war in which US soldiers are not directly engaged.

The fact that Ukraine is in Europe and Yemen is mostly out of sight in the Arabian Peninsula probably explains why the war in Yemen under Bush got far less attention.

[Bootstrap]

Wasn't Obama the President in 2014?

Yeah, I should have re-read that before posting.

But Trump did praise Putin for this and repeated Kremlin propaganda.

[Josh]

The US was directly engaged in both Syria and Afghanistan during that entire time, spending tens of billions and having troops deployed to conflict zones in each of those countries. The US was also involved in various proxy wars in Africa during this time as well.

And Trump tried to remove us from Afghanistan, and the intelligence community and the generals openly defied him for 4 years.

Fortunately, they weren't able to defy Biden too, so we are finally gone. But the abruptness of the withdrawal was very bad. It should have been done in an orderly fashion when Trump ordered it.

Lack of civilian control of the intelligence services and the military is quite concerning.

[Bootstrap]

Can anyone show me some examples of Trump really standing up to Putin? On anything? Ever?

[Ken]

The US was directly engaged in both Syria and Afghanistan during that entire time, spending tens of billions and having troops deployed to conflict zones in each of those countries. The US was also involved in various proxy wars in Africa during this time as well.

And Trump tried to remove us from Afghanistan, and the intelligence community and the generals openly defied him for 4 years.

Fortunately, they weren't able to defy Biden too, so we are finally gone. But the abruptness of the withdrawal was very bad. It should have been done in an orderly fashion when Trump ordered it.

Lack of civilian control of the intelligence services and the military is quite concerning.

Aside from one suicide bombing which was conducted by ISIS and not the Taliban, it looked pretty orderly to me.

The US evacuated over 124,000 Afghans and foreign workers from Afghanistan in a 2-week period. It was one of the largest and most complicated airlifts in history. And went very smoothly.

What part of the evacuation are you saying went very badly? The fact that they didn't bring all the US weaponry along too? That was never going to happen. The US arms buildup in Afghanistan took 20 years and was mostly accomplished by transporting in equipment overland through Pakistan and Tajikistan. They were never going to haul all that stuff back out via air transport.