Abusing the DOJ - Trump, Biden

[Bootstrap]

Grace keeps raising this in a thread about election investigations, so there is apparently need for a place to discuss it where it is on topic. Here's her latest:

Except of course, if the political enemy is an opposing presidential candidate and the political friend is a drug addled, law breaking, prostitute mongering son.

No "except" involved. If those claims are true, they are a real problem. No matter who the President is. Even if it is the President himself who is involved with prostitutes and not his son. If these things should be investigated for Biden, they should be investigated for Trump. In both cases, evidence is required.

Trump is now promising to use the DOJ to get revenge. That should tell us something. Especially as we think about election fraud. Which is why it's important to know what he did in the last election.

Trump's statements are "talk". Joe Biden’s weaponizing his DOJ against his likeliest 2024 political opponent are "actions", not just bloviating "talk".

[Bootstrap]

I think Trump took many actions against the independence of the DOJ, publicly complaining that they did not protect him and his friends or go after his enemies, tweeting instructions about what they should do with his friends and his enemies, firing people who got too close to him.

I'm surprised anyone would call that just words.

Some examples:

President Trump fired FBI Director James Comey on May 9, 2017, which raised concerns about the independence and future of the top law enforcement institutions of the United States of America. Comey had just announced in March that he had been overseeing an investigation into whether the Trump campaign and Trump’s associates coordinated with Russia to influence the 2016 election. That seems like actions, not words, to protect the President against investigations into his own wrongdoing.

President Trump reportedly ordered White House Counsel Donald McGahn to fire Mueller in June 2018, but McGahn refused and threatened to quit.

President Trump pressured Jeff Sessions to resign from his position as Attorney General of the United States. Trump had repeatedly criticized Sessions for his decision to recuse himself from investigations related to the 2016 Trump presidential campaign, which included the special counsel probe into Russian interference in the election. President Trump reportedly asked "Where's my Roy Cohn?" - Roy Cohn was Eugene McCarthy's lawyer. Cohn was also a mentor to Donald Trump in the 1970s and 1980s, and helped him navigate the New York City real estate world.

The Attorney General is not supposed to be the President's Roy Cohn. The President is not supposed to fire people in the DOJ to stop them from investigating him. This is actions, not words.

[Bootstrap]

I'm trying to make an apples-to-apples comparison of Biden and Trump here, including both:

1. The available evidence for a claim, and
2. The seriousness of the claim.

I'm not sure what level of evidence exists for the claim that Joe Biden exercised his office over the DOJ to protect his son. Can someone please provide that evidence? It would certainly be serious, if true.

But not as serious as many well known instances involving Trump. To me, even if the evidence were there, it would be hypocritical to criticize only Joe Biden for this without criticizing Trump, whose abuse is well documented and much more serious. Or am I missing something?

[Josh]

The DOJ and Attorney General are supposed to report to, and be accountable to the President, who is elected by the people. Full stop.

Government bureaucrats need to be accountable to somebody. The DOJ is full of people who aren't elected and seem, under Trump, to have been accountable to nobody.

[Ken]

The DOJ and Attorney General are supposed to report to, and be accountable to the President, who is elected by the people. Full stop.

Government bureaucrats need to be accountable to somebody. The DOJ is full of people who aren't elected and seem, under Trump, to have been accountable to nobody.

They may be appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate.

But they are ACCOUNTABLE to the Constitution. The Attorney General, FBI, and lower employees of the DOJ all swear an oath to the Constitution not the president.

Furthermore, the independence of the DOJ from the president is a longstanding tradition in the US government.

[Josh]

The DOJ and Attorney General are supposed to report to, and be accountable to the President, who is elected by the people. Full stop.

Government bureaucrats need to be accountable to somebody. The DOJ is full of people who aren't elected and seem, under Trump, to have been accountable to nobody.

They may be appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate.

But they are ACCOUNTABLE to the Constitution. The Attorney General, FBI, and lower employees of the DOJ all swear an oath to the Constitution not the president.

Furthermore, the independence of the DOJ from the president is a longstanding tradition in the US government.

Could you tell us whom, exactly, they ARE accountable to? The Constitution isn't something you are "accountable to". It's just a document.

[JimFoxvog]

Furthermore, the independence of the DOJ from the president is a longstanding tradition in the US government.

And a very important tradition. If there is evidence that Biden is abusing this power the Democrats should replace him as their candidate.

(Same with the Republicans and Trump.)

[Ken]

The DOJ and Attorney General are supposed to report to, and be accountable to the President, who is elected by the people. Full stop.

Government bureaucrats need to be accountable to somebody. The DOJ is full of people who aren't elected and seem, under Trump, to have been accountable to nobody.

They may be appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate.

But they are ACCOUNTABLE to the Constitution. The Attorney General, FBI, and lower employees of the DOJ all swear an oath to the Constitution not the president.

Furthermore, the independence of the DOJ from the president is a longstanding tradition in the US government.

Could you tell us whom, exactly, they ARE accountable to? The Constitution isn't something you are "accountable to". It's just a document.

You want a person?

Fine, DOJ employees are answerable to the DOJ chain of command which goes up to the president. High ranking DOJ officials are also accountable to Congress which confirms them and has the power to impeach them. And all DOJ officials are subject to Congressional oversight. Both the Senate and House have committees specifically tasked with DOJ oversight.

But their job is to administer justice in accordance with the Constitution and other statutes as passed by Congress.

The notion of a deep state accountable to no one is a canard outside of perhaps some intelligence agencies like the NSA. And even they are subject to Congressional oversight and the president.

[Josh]

Fine, DOJ employees are answerable to the DOJ chain of command which goes up to the president.

OK. So did Trump have the right and authority to hold people in the DOJ accountable (including firing them), or not?

[Grace]

Investigation of the Biden alleged crimes and investigation of the Biden crimes cover-up by the DOJ. James Comer explains it well and reveals that the IRS wanted to investigate the Biden's, but DOJ's Leslie Wolf said "no".

The lies and cover up by this administration is astounding.