Trump on abortion restrictions: "a terrible thing", "a terrible mistake"

[Bootstrap]

I think he wants to win and a hard line on abortion is not a winning strategy. I don't imagine it will shake his base, transgender ideology is has replaced abortion as the salient culture war issue.

You may be right.

But as Christians, will we have learned from the last five culture war issues? Will we learn to ground ourselves first in the Kingdom of God and start by building our own response to each issue in our own context?

Or will we put our trust in politicians? And believe that they won't sell us down the river? And think we will not be polluted in the process? And think that will make us credible in the eyes of the world, that they will think that demonstrates we have integrity in our beliefs?

On the transgender issue, I think we will face all the same issues.

[Josh]

I think he wants to win and a hard line on abortion is not a winning strategy. I don't imagine it will shake his base, transgender ideology is has replaced abortion as the salient culture war issue.

You may be right.

But as Christians, will we have learned from the last five culture war issues? Will we learn to ground ourselves first in the Kingdom of God and start by building our own response to each issue in our own context?

Or will we put our trust in politicians? And believe that they won't sell us down the river? And think we will not be polluted in the process? And think that will make us credible in the eyes of the world, that they will think that demonstrates we have integrity in our beliefs?

On the transgender issue, I think we will face all the same issues.

"We" as "conservative Mennonites" learned this quite a while ago (although some of the groups trending liberal seem to be busy un-learning it).

Are you saying "we" as "evangelicals who like to vote", or who exactly is this referring to?

[Jazman]

In light of Trump's new? ever or always evolving positions...
Maybe these guys have some interesting points to consider?

Can any or all of us with various shades of pro-life, anti-abortion views concur with these points made by the linked talking heads?

[Host]"...quite frankly the pro-life movement just wasn't ready. Yeah it feels like they're a little bit like the dog that caught the car and they don't know what to do with it...[] :et's shift from the politics of this to the morality of it, because yeah you've written and spoken recently about - I think the title was "The abortion movement won the legal battle [meaning the Dobbs case] but it may be losing the war" and you frequently have talked about the difference between banning abortion and ending abortion. yeah and it feels like a lot of the rhetoric is still around these legal issues of banning abortion at whatever week you want to mark or the heartbeat bills, whatever and there's a lot less visible or audible rhetoric around ending abortion and some of the more nuanced policies that could actually lower the demand for abortion. So talk pragmatic ways to reduce abortion - about the moral side of this for those of us who are pro-life and care more about actually ending abortion or reducing the number rather than just what laws are on the books. Where do you think our energy should be going right now?
[French] "Yeah, as we think about candidates... policies...whether local state or federal I think you have to acknowledge a reality that says that for much of the culture, not only has the pro-life movement lost the argument - it's been routed...[] So you're really beginning from square one in a lot of places in the United States of America and and square one is quite literally, 'I'm not a hateful person' - okay That's how square one we are because the marriage of the pro-life and the mind meld of the pro-life movement to the Maga movement and to Donald Trump has really done extraordinary harm to the notion that the pro-life movement tried to cultivate for decades... which is, 'we're a movement rooted in love', right. Fundamentally we're in a movement rooted in love. If you go back to John Paul II and his Gospel of Life, If you read that book, which was very, very influential on younger me, and in informing a more holistic pro-life ethic it's rooted in the [] incalculable worth of the human person... So that's [] the root right there. Um how is that compatible with joining a movement that is shot through with hatred? So those two things are very deeply in conflict with each other..."

This is only one excerpt from many profound things said, I believe.
Oddly, ironically, confusingly? Trump's statements could be read as leaning towards a more pragmatic, or holistic approach or a more incrementalistic approach as implied or suggested at times, in the linked conversation.

[Ken]

In light of Trump's new? ever or always evolving positions...
Maybe these guys have some interesting points to consider?

Can any or all of us with various shades of pro-life, anti-abortion views concur with these points made by the linked talking heads?

[Host]"...quite frankly the pro-life movement just wasn't ready. Yeah it feels like they're a little bit like the dog that caught the car and they don't know what to do with it...[] :et's shift from the politics of this to the morality of it, because yeah you've written and spoken recently about - I think the title was "The abortion movement won the legal battle [meaning the Dobbs case] but it may be losing the war" and you frequently have talked about the difference between banning abortion and ending abortion. yeah and it feels like a lot of the rhetoric is still around these legal issues of banning abortion at whatever week you want to mark or the heartbeat bills, whatever and there's a lot less visible or audible rhetoric around ending abortion and some of the more nuanced policies that could actually lower the demand for abortion. So talk pragmatic ways to reduce abortion - about the moral side of this for those of us who are pro-life and care more about actually ending abortion or reducing the number rather than just what laws are on the books. Where do you think our energy should be going right now?
[French] "Yeah, as we think about candidates... policies...whether local state or federal I think you have to acknowledge a reality that says that for much of the culture, not only has the pro-life movement lost the argument - it's been routed...[] So you're really beginning from square one in a lot of places in the United States of America and and square one is quite literally, 'I'm not a hateful person' - okay That's how square one we are because the marriage of the pro-life and the mind meld of the pro-life movement to the Maga movement and to Donald Trump has really done extraordinary harm to the notion that the pro-life movement tried to cultivate for decades... which is, 'we're a movement rooted in love', right. Fundamentally we're in a movement rooted in love. If you go back to John Paul II and his Gospel of Life, If you read that book, which was very, very influential on younger me, and in informing a more holistic pro-life ethic it's rooted in the [] incalculable worth of the human person... So that's [] the root right there. Um how is that compatible with joining a movement that is shot through with hatred? So those two things are very deeply in conflict with each other..."

This is only one excerpt from many profound things said, I believe.
Oddly, ironically, confusingly? Trump's statements could be read as leaning towards a more pragmatic, or holistic approach or a more incrementalistic approach as implied or suggested at times, in the linked conversation.

I did not watch the video but essentially what the copied quote you posted describes is the former positions of many churches in the 1970s before abortion was weaponized as a political issue by one party (and really one faction of one party).

For example, Baptists in 1971: https://www.sbc.net/resource-library/re ... bortion-2/ in 1974: https://www.sbc.net/resource-library/re ... uman-life/ and in 1977: https://www.sbc.net/resource-library/re ... bortion-4/

And the Mennonites in 1975: https://anabaptistwiki.org/mediawiki/in ... rch,_1975)

I honestly think that there are a large number of Republican politicians (Trump included) who really don't hold strong moral issues about abortion one way or the other but simply fall in line for political reasons like any other Republican culture war issue and use abortion as a political issue to win party primaries. What do I mean by that? Simply that they use it as a political wedge issue rather than seeking policies that would actually reduce the number of abortions. The goal is to politicize abortion to win votes and political power, not to actually reduce abortions.

[barnhart]

I think he wants to win and a hard line on abortion is not a winning strategy. I don't imagine it will shake his base, transgender ideology is has replaced abortion as the salient culture war issue.

You may be right.

But as Christians, will we have learned from the last five culture war issues? Will we learn to ground ourselves first in the Kingdom of God and start by building our own response to each issue in our own context?

Or will we put our trust in politicians? And believe that they won't sell us down the river? And think we will not be polluted in the process? And think that will make us credible in the eyes of the world, that they will think that demonstrates we have integrity in our beliefs?

On the transgender issue, I think we will face all the same issues.

I predict the culture will integrate transgender ideology very similar to the acclimation of same sex marriage and prayer in schools. Until then, there is a lot of money and angst to raised by utilizing it as a flashpoint.

[Josh]

You may be right.

But as Christians, will we have learned from the last five culture war issues? Will we learn to ground ourselves first in the Kingdom of God and start by building our own response to each issue in our own context?

I think it's safe to say no lessons have been learned. As I'm fond of pointing out, Tucker Carlson embraces gay marriage now.

Or will we put our trust in politicians? And believe that they won't sell us down the river? And think we will not be polluted in the process? And think that will make us credible in the eyes of the world, that they will think that demonstrates we have integrity in our beliefs?

On the transgender issue, I think we will face all the same issues.

Politicians are a terrible moral compass. We can observe some of the problems in all the enthusiasm the right wing (including the religious parts of it) had for Ron DeSantis, who seemed to spend his time going around talking about measures he was taking that didn't seem to survive in the courts and were meaningless or symbolic anyway. The end result is the culture war is lost.

I predict the culture will integrate transgender ideology very similar to the acclimation of same sex marriage and prayer in schools. Until then, there is a lot of money and angst to raised by utilizing it as a flashpoint.

I could not agree more.

For a comparison, try making a statement like that it should not be socially acceptable to have children out of wedlock. Such a statement is basically offensive even in "conservative" circles and religious circles. This was 100%, entirely uncontroversial 100 years ago.

[Jazman]

This discussion between two holistic oriented pro-lifers makes some great points... Abortion and Pro-life Politics... part II Part 1 is excellent as well. If the things these two discuss and advocate, become the theme of the pro-life movement (rather than just voting for claiming "pro-life" GOP candidates = conservative justices) then I believe there's hope for shifts in the culture. But if the movement continues with the all-or-nothing, punitive and or hypocritical(current 'dear leader') approaches, I expect reactions that will actually entrench abortion further and probably increase its rate...

[Josh]

This discussion between two holistic oriented pro-lifers makes some great points... Abortion and Pro-life Politics... part II Part 1 is excellent as well. If the things these two discuss and advocate, become the theme of the pro-life movement (rather than just voting for claiming "pro-life" GOP candidates = conservative justices)

It is a leftist caricature that that’s all pro life people care about. Every single one I have met does stuff like volunteer and help people.

However, I also think having judges who actually execute justice is also a good thing. Having judges who promote murdering babies is a bad thing. Having courts of justice is a good thing and something the Bible teaches we should have.

[temporal1]

It is a leftist caricature that that’s all pro life people care about.
Every single one I have met does stuff like volunteer and help people.

However, I also think having judges who actually execute justice is also a good thing. Having judges who promote murdering babies is a bad thing. Having courts of justice is a good thing and something the Bible teaches we should have.

The response to RvW overturn from leftists/libs/DNC, White House, Congress, et al., has been reprehensible.
For what?? - CHEAP POLITICAL gain.

Whether they dominate/“win” on earth is the lesser matter. Christians, of all people, should not be sucked into the fray.
Being in “the minority” should not be surprising. It is to be expected. The earthly price is often high. But, temporary.

What is Truth? versus What is popular?

The godless “leftist caricatures” are reprehensible. White House-down. Pure politics. Their celebrations will end in sorrow.

[Jazman]

Whether they dominate/“win” on earth is the lesser matter. Christians, of all people, should not be sucked into the fray.

Both good points actually... but it's funny you mention Christians who "should not be sucked into the fray"... I guess it depends what kind of 'fray' you mean? If it's the standard political fray around the matter, then actually quite a lot of american christians have gladly jumped into the fray... for many it's quite a large part of their identity now. So I'm not quite sure what you mean when you imply we avoid "the fray"...

But again, would it be too difficult to just once, look at your/our tribe and their/our role or even calling in all of this? (As the piece. with 2 staunch pro-lifers, that repeatedly point to our calling in the matter! Did you read it! - Without immediately and seemingly, only, point your finger at "Them" (the White house, leftists, libs etc)