Is it OK to refer to MAGA by name?

[Bootstrap]

The pesky matter of, “innocent until proven guilty,” speculation, gossip. Spreading rumors?

More completely, the phrase is "presumed innocent until proven guilty." This is a legal presumption--legally the accused needs to be treated as if he were innocent. Even this has its limitations. One indicted for murder will often be held until trial for the safety of the community. Some are arguing the same should be done for Trump.

Context matters.

In court, you are innocent until proven guilty. That doesn't mean people cannot be taken to court. There does need to be enough evidence to justify a trial. You and I may not see that evidence.

[Josh]

In my particular Anabaptist background, we believe in both:

1. Seeking first the Kingdom of God
2. Being subject to the governing authorities except when it goes against my allegiance to God
3. Seeking peace and justice and truth

The same in mine.

And in all of that, finding ways to agree on how to resolve issues winds up being an important part of that third way. Rebellion against the government is not the third way. The third way doesn't make us the experts on elections or which politicians are most guilty. The talking points of political factions are NOT any third way as I understand it.

I do not consider the courts a way to find ways to agree. In fact, I would view them as basically the opposite. A court, law enforcement, juries, and so on might come to a right or a wrong decision.

So we should prefer shouting matches and torches and pitchforks and January 6th? For Caesar, do you have a better alternative to juries and elections? If so, what?

That is a false choice. There are pros and cons to common law jury trials. But they are also only as good as the body politic itself - the jurors. I do not consider courts and jurors to be infallible.

Because it often sounds like some people want to tear it all down because it's not perfect.

I agree with Winston Churchill:

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…

Of course, there's only so much that ANY government can do. We don't expect government to be perfect. It's not the Kingdom of God. But what better alternative do you have to courts and elections?

As I have stated earlier, I don't think that we have a real democracy and I don't think our elections have been honest in a long time. That doesn't affect my faith in the kingdom of God, nor really cause my much distress or anguish about living in this country. I don't "believe" in democracy nor need to rely on it.

It does mean, however, that hearing someone won such an such an election is about as relevant as hearing the results of a Twitter poll.

[Ken]

As I have stated earlier, I don't think that we have a real democracy and I don't think our elections have been honest in a long time. That doesn't affect my faith in the kingdom of God, nor really cause my much distress or anguish about living in this country. I don't "believe" in democracy nor need to rely on it.

It does mean, however, that hearing someone won such an such an election is about as relevant as hearing the results of a Twitter poll.

Well, elections are certainly more relevant than a twitter poll to the extent that elected officials are sometimes granted enormous power in our society on the basis of election results. Including the power of life or death over millions. So you should want them to be more relevant than a twitter poll.

[Josh]

Well, elections are certainly more relevant than a twitter poll to the extent that elected officials are sometimes granted enormous power in our society on the basis of election results. Including the power of life or death over millions. So you should want them to be more relevant than a twitter poll.

Why should I? It doesn't matter what I "want" - it's not like it's going to change anything. Something that gives people power of life or death over millions is going to attract corruption, and indeed means the process that decides who gets that power is going to be more corrupt, not less.

Elections simply exist to give a veneer of respectability to what is fundamentally a corrupt and wicked system.