Alternate Electors, 2019 Presidential Election

[Ernie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot
Wiki Article

[Ernie]

Michigan AG charges 16 false electors.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michig ... l-election

[JimFoxvog]

Michigan AG charges 16 false electors.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michig ... l-election

I hope and expect other states to follow Michigan's example.

[Josh]

Michigan AG charges 16 false electors.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michig ... l-election

I hope and expect other states to follow Michigan's example.

I hope other states don't have the majority political party decide they should try to put their political enemies in prison, which seems to be the current path the Democratic Party is on. This is very toxic and dangerous for democracy.

[JimFoxvog]

I hope other states don't have the majority political party decide they should try to put their political enemies in prison, which seems to be the current path the Democratic Party is on. This is very toxic and dangerous for democracy.

I agree that no party or state should do this; it is toxic and dangerous. I don't think it is being done in this case. Not filing charges against election fraud like this would be a political decision to try to avoid such accusations.

The false elector scheme seems to have been a coordinated conspiracy that should be addressed on the Federal level I expect Jack Smith to file charges for those higher up in the conspiracy.

I can understand the party that chanted "LOCK HER UP!" could look at it the way you suggest.

[Josh]

I hope other states don't have the majority political party decide they should try to put their political enemies in prison, which seems to be the current path the Democratic Party is on. This is very toxic and dangerous for democracy.

I agree that no party or state should do this; it is toxic and dangerous. I don't think it is being done in this case. Not filing charges against election fraud like this would be a political decision to try to avoid such accusations.

The false elector scheme seems to have been a coordinated conspiracy that should be addressed on the Federal level I expect Jack Smith to file charges for those higher up in the conspiracy.

I can understand the party that chanted "LOCK HER UP!" could look at it the way you suggest.

There was no coordinated fraud nor conspiracy. This was an election with disputed results, and some people felt it was important to be ready to represent their state and party in case the outcomes after counts and recounts changed.

The Democrats seem to have a new political strategy of calling anyone who opposes them a conspiracy theorist, a criminal, and alleging fraud. Again, this is toxic and dangerous to democracy. After winning an election, it's not proper to try to point your political opponents in prison. And I am especially disappointed to see folks like you, Jim, who normally would advocate for restorative justice and against unnecessarily harsh prison sentences calling to throw people in prison and lock away the key for merely being political losers.

[Ken]

There was no coordinated fraud nor conspiracy. This was an election with disputed results, and some people felt it was important to be ready to represent their state and party in case the outcomes after counts and recounts changed.

Actually it was very much coordinated fraud and conspiracy. First of all, these were not the official Trump electors. So they would have been fraudulent electors even if the certified results of the Michigan election determined that Trump had won. There already was a legitimate slate of Republican electors on the ballot. These people were not them. The ACTUAL Republican slate of electors were chosen at the Republican State Party Convention in June of 2020 as specified in the state Constitution.

And yes, it was a coordinated conspiracy. Top members of the Trump campaign were coordinating all of this in 7 states. So we are talking about an organized conspiracy involving potentially hundreds of people. How do we know? They bragged about it and some of these fraudulent Michigan electors openly bragged and testified about how they were coordinating with the Trump campaign. They admitted it.

And no, they weren't waiting to represent their party in case the recounts changed. Look at the timeline. All of the legal challenges brought by the Trump campaign in Michigan were concluded by November 2020 and the state certified the election results on November 23 with Biden winning by 154,188 votes. At that point there were no longer any legitimate legal challenges to the 2020 election results in Michigan and no pending lawsuits or recounts yet to be resolved.

All of this "fake elector" business happened on December 16 over 3 weeks after the results had been certified. According to the charging documents, on December 16 these fake electors met in secret in the basement of the GOP party headquarters in Lansing, posted guards at the entrance to the building, collected all cell phones to prevent recording of their actions, and signed official documents fraudulently certifying that they were the correct Michigan electors.

Why did they go through all that trouble after the election had already been certified? In order to produce documents that could be used to overturn the election when the electoral college met in DC or if the January 6th attempted insurrection had proven successful. That is the very definition of a conspiracy to overturn the results of the presidential election in Michigan and fraudulently invalidate that votes of 2,804,040 Michiganders who voted for Biden.

The Democrats seem to have a new political strategy of calling anyone who opposes them a conspiracy theorist, a criminal, and alleging fraud. Again, this is toxic and dangerous to democracy. After winning an election, it's not proper to try to point your political opponents in prison. And I am especially disappointed to see folks like you, Jim, who normally would advocate for restorative justice and against unnecessarily harsh prison sentences calling to throw people in prison and lock away the key for merely being political losers.

Really? It is the DEMOCRATS who are alleging fraud in the 2020 election? Should we rewind the tape and find how many times YOU claimed there was election fraud in the 2020 election here on this forum? In point of fact, some of these fake electors are still publicly claiming fraud.

Now it seems we have actual evidence of real fraud. And not just an attempt to cast one fraudulent vote, but to fraudulently invalidate the votes of nearly 3 million Michiganders. And you say there is nothing to see here?

These people all knew what they were doing. And they took great pains to hide the conspiratorial nature of it by meeting in secret to sign fraudulent documents, posting guards, collecting cell phones, etc. You are very big on holding people responsible when it is Black kids who commit crimes. Then it is all "lock them up and throw away the key". But when it is older White Republicans engaged in a conspiratorial attempt to overthrow an election suddenly you want to brush it all under the table?

We are a country of laws and I'm happy to let the legal process play out. If these people are innocent of the crimes for which they have been charged then they have nothing to worry about. I'm sure they will be able to find good attorneys. And if they are not, they should face the consequences of their actions like any other criminal. Which is the same sentiment you are quick to express here when it is any other crime.

[Josh]

Yes. The left claims anyone who doesn’t agree Democrats win an election needs to be locked up in prison as a dangerous person.

It’s an interesting viewpoint coming from the same people that say violent criminals shouldn’t be locked up in prison because it’s “society’s fault” they rob and steal.

[Ken]

Yes. The left claims anyone who doesn’t agree Democrats win an election needs to be locked up in prison as a dangerous person.

Here we go again. No one on the left actually makes such a claim. Furthermore, look at what you just wrote. Anyone who disagrees with the certified results of an election is actually alleging fraud. If you are disagreeing with the results of the 2020 election in Michigan where Biden won by over 154,000 votes you are by definition alleging that fraud occurred. Alleging fraud without evidence is simply a form of lying.

It’s an interesting viewpoint coming from the same people that say violent criminals shouldn’t be locked up in prison because it’s “society’s fault” they rob and steal.

Again, No one says that.

If you are pointing at me, what I actually say is that crime is a complex problem that requires complex solutions. Yes prisons are one tool and a necessary tool. But they are inadequate to solving the problem on their own as we have discovered in the past several decades in which we have locked up people at rates far exceeding every other western democracy on the planet, and most if not all authoritarian regimes as well.

It is like building a house. A hammer is a necessary tool for building a house. You would have a hard time building a house without a hammer. But it isn't the only tool required. And if you tried to build a house with nothing but a hammer you will end up with one ratty looking mess. Crime is an even more complex societal problem than home construction. And so yes, multiple tools are required.

[Grace]

The individuals involved in the alternate elector's scheme range from 55 to 82 years old. I hope the judges presiding over these cases have common sense and do not put these elderly people in prison to die there. Community service would be a much better option (if they are able). However, we know from the past, that anything or anyone pertaining to being pro Trump, will receive the harshest sentence possible.