Amish and Welfare

[Ken]

I was a bit surprised to learn the Amish are starting to use some of the above things, but government agencies are trying to find ways to sign them up for benefits. For example car seats for babies are given away in many places; the Amish are resistant to hand outs so they started charging a dollar two for them. Then the Amish gladly “bought” them.

Likewise they want to get Amish enrolled in WIC so they feed infants formula instead of raw milk but the Amish won’t accept a handout. So they were working on a very unusual exception where the Amish “pay” a small fee to be on WIC and it’s portrayed as a groceries discount card.

In local circles a lot of Beachy etc type of churches claim exemption from Social Security for many years, then become more worldly and the elderly people then apply for and receive Medicare. I think this is dishonest, especially when the young people now must pay Social Security and Medicaid taxes and the older generation never had to pay any of this. Any group that does this should have the older immediately transfer 15% of their wealth to either the younger generation or to the government.

Are there Amish who are so poor that they need WIC to survive? I would have expected that a rural community with plenty of space for gardens wouldn't be in need of food assistance.

What exactly is this dishonesty you are claiming with respect to Social Security and Medicare?

My understanding is that exemptions are individual and that any individual who claims a religious exemption from Social Security or Medicare Taxes is permanently ineligible from participating in those programs. So that elderly Amish can't just decide to apply for and receive those benefits after a lifetime of being exempt.

Where is the dishonesty? Is it that some churches have a cohort of elderly retirees who don't receive SS and Medicare because they exempted themselves but that now the church is no longer holding to that same standard so that younger members are now paying into SS and Medicare? That seems more like a transition issue rather than something dishonest.

[ken_sylvania]

Are there Amish who are so poor that they need WIC to survive? I would have expected that a rural community with plenty of space for gardens wouldn't be in need of food assistance.

Well, akshully...

Much of rural America is actually considered to be "food deserts." You can crisscross the Great Plains and most small towns no longer even have a grocery store. At best they might have a Dollar General with little in the way fresh food. You might have to drive 20-30 miles to find the nearest Wal-Mart in a larger town. As for the crops grown locally, it's mostly just wheat, soybeans, and corn produced at an industrial scale. I suppose one can grind corn by hand and make tortillas. Or mill your own flour. But that will get old pretty fast and isn't a very balanced diet.

[Ken]

Are there Amish who are so poor that they need WIC to survive? I would have expected that a rural community with plenty of space for gardens wouldn't be in need of food assistance.

Well, akshully...

Much of rural America is actually considered to be "food deserts." You can crisscross the Great Plains and most small towns no longer even have a grocery store. At best they might have a Dollar General with little in the way fresh food. You might have to drive 20-30 miles to find the nearest Wal-Mart in a larger town. As for the crops grown locally, it's mostly just wheat, soybeans, and corn produced at an industrial scale. I suppose one can grind corn by hand and make tortillas. Or mill your own flour. But that will get old pretty fast and isn't a very balanced diet.

Except that presumably the Amish are an exception to the normal industrial scale agriculture in the great plains, are they not?

It is one thing to try to homestead solo in some isolated rural part of the Great Plains. That would be difficult and pretty unsustainable because you don't have community support, local markets close by, etc. It's another thing entirely to be part of what is supposed to be a sustainable self-sufficient Amish community in Ohio which is what Josh is talking about.

Is an Amish lifestyle SUSTAINABLE or UNSUSTAINABLE in rural Ohio?

I don't begrudge Amish taking advantage of WIC and other such programs. They pay taxes like anyone else. I'm just kind of surprised that the Amish community in rural Ohio needs food assistance. WIC is usually single mothers. Where are the Amish men?

[Josh]

Are there Amish who are so poor that they need WIC to survive? I would have expected that a rural community with plenty of space for gardens wouldn't be in need of food assistance.

They aren’t but public health workers are tasked with trying to get them to enrol. Imagine your territory is mostly Amish people and none of them want to sign up, and your agency depends on signs up to maintain its funding.

What exactly is this dishonesty you are claiming with respect to Social Security and Medicare?

My understanding is that exemptions are individual and that any individual who claims a religious exemption from Social Security or Medicare Taxes is permanently ineligible from participating in those programs. So that elderly Amish can't just decide to apply for and receive those benefits after a lifetime of being exempt.

This is how it is in theory but in practice Medicare lets anybody sign up. All they check is age and citizenship etc for eligibility.

Where is the dishonesty? Is it that some churches have a cohort of elderly retirees who don't receive SS and Medicare because they exempted themselves but that now the church is no longer holding to that same standard so that younger members are now paying into SS and Medicare? That seems more like a transition issue rather than something dishonest.

… did you miss the part about the elderly all going and applying for Medicare too? I ran into one person that also collects SS and bragged about it, emphasising how he barely paid anything in. (You only have to earn $6,000 in a year to earn full social security credits.) Whatever his scenario was, this seemed rather dishonest.

[Josh]

Is an Amish lifestyle SUSTAINABLE or UNSUSTAINABLE in rural Ohio?

I don't begrudge Amish taking advantage of WIC and other such programs. They pay taxes like anyone else. I'm just kind of surprised that the Amish community in rural Ohio needs food assistance.

Did you read what I said? The Amish weren’t interested in WIC, but social workers wanted them to sign up, so they found a way they could “pay” a very nominal sum and then Amish felt comfortable since they were told I was basically a “discount coupon” for groceries.

No Amish needed WIC. This was purely a matter of trying to get them to sign up. County level agencies and state level funding is determined by how many sign ups happen and incentivised are offered to get as many to sign up as possible.

WIC is usually single mothers. Where are the Amish men?

WIC is available to any mother including married mothers. What gave you the above bizarre idea?

[Ken]

My understanding is that the majority of WIC recipients are single mothers. So it really sounds like in your part of Ohio you just have some busy-body WIC social workers in your area. In any event, I really don't see the problem. It is really just a subsidy for local groceries as they get the money, not the recipients.

As for social security? Your benefits are based on what you paid in. Someone who didn't pay in most of their life is not going to be eligible for a very meaningful social security benefit. But it will still be based on what they actually paid in so I don't see the issue. Social Security starts at $49/month for someone who has paid into the system and earned the minimum of 40 credits (40 quarters or at least 10 years of covered employment). That isn't much. If you have less than 40 credits you don't get anything.

Mathematically you would have had to earn a minimum of $1,640 for 40 separate quarters or 10 years during which time you paid social security taxes in order to qualify for the minimum social security benefit which is $49/month if you take it at your full retirement age. 8% less for each year you take it early. So your Amish guy might be entitled to a social security check but it isn't going to be a very big one.

Social Security is based on your highest 35 years earnings history so someone with only 10 years of payments into the system is going to have 25 years of zeros for the rest of his earnings history and not going to get much of a check regardless.

[Josh]

My understanding is that the majority of WIC recipients are single mothers. So it really sounds like in your part of Ohio you just have some busy-body WIC social workers in your area. In any event, I really don't see the problem. It is really just a subsidy for local groceries as they get the money, not the recipients.

Your understanding is wrong. I would guesstimate 1/3 of my congregation (of babies or small children) qualifies for WIC. It’s based on family size and income.

I agree WIC seems to be a subsidy to Big Ag. It’s not that great of a deal for grocery stores and administration is rather complex. You have to buy name brand stuff so Aldi can’t participate.

As for social security? Your benefits are based on what you paid in. Someone who didn't pay in most of their life is not going to be eligible for a very meaningful social security benefit. But it will still be based on what they actually paid in so I don't see the issue. Social Security starts at $49/month for someone who has paid into the system and earned the minimum of 40 credits (40 quarters or at least 10 years of covered employment). That isn't much. If you have less than 40 credits you don't get anything.

Mathematically you would have had to earn a minimum of $1,640 for 40 separate quarters or 10 years in order to qualify for the minimum social security benefit which is $49/month if you take it at your full retirement age. 8% less for each year you take it early. So your Amish guy might be entitled to a social security check but it isn't going to be a very big one.

I’m guessing he left the Amish and worked at wage jobs the last few years before he retired.

[Ken]

My understanding is that the majority of WIC recipients are single mothers. So it really sounds like in your part of Ohio you just have some busy-body WIC social workers in your area. In any event, I really don't see the problem. It is really just a subsidy for local groceries as they get the money, not the recipients.

Your understanding is wrong. I would guesstimate 1/3 of my congregation (of babies or small children) qualifies for WIC. It’s based on family size and income.

I agree WIC seems to be a subsidy to Big Ag. It’s not that great of a deal for grocery stores and administration is rather complex. You have to buy name brand stuff so Aldi can’t participate.

As for social security? Your benefits are based on what you paid in. Someone who didn't pay in most of their life is not going to be eligible for a very meaningful social security benefit. But it will still be based on what they actually paid in so I don't see the issue. Social Security starts at $49/month for someone who has paid into the system and earned the minimum of 40 credits (40 quarters or at least 10 years of covered employment). That isn't much. If you have less than 40 credits you don't get anything.

Mathematically you would have had to earn a minimum of $1,640 for 40 separate quarters or 10 years in order to qualify for the minimum social security benefit which is $49/month if you take it at your full retirement age. 8% less for each year you take it early. So your Amish guy might be entitled to a social security check but it isn't going to be a very big one.

I’m guessing he left the Amish and worked at wage jobs the last few years before he retired.

I'm not talking about your small congregation. I'm talking about nationally. The majority of WIC recipients nationally are single mothers. I think I remember reading it was something like 80% but I can't put my finger on the stat right now.

[Josh]

What does that fact have to do with the Amish? Most Americans aren’t Amish.

And in any case you’re still wrong. From the US Census:

About half of WIC mothers are currently married ....
This translates into 1.3 million of the Nation’s 2.4 million WIC mothers. Most (1.1 million) of these 1.3 million women had their husband present in the household; the other 244,000 were either separated or had absent hus- bands. Married WIC mothers had an average of 2.4 children each

1.3/2.4 is not what most of us think of as “most”.

[ken_sylvania]

What does that fact have to do with the Amish? Most Americans aren’t Amish.

And in any case you’re still wrong. From the US Census:

About half of WIC mothers are currently married ....
This translates into 1.3 million of the Nation’s 2.4 million WIC mothers. Most (1.1 million) of these 1.3 million women had their husband present in the household; the other 244,000 were either separated or had absent hus- bands. Married WIC mothers had an average of 2.4 children each

1.3/2.4 is not what most of us think of as “most”.

No, it's not, but you've used "most" often enough to describe a percentage greater than 50% but less than 75% that I don't think you have much standing to complain. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, etc...