Bill Barr on Trump

[Bootstrap]

Do I have any comments on the subject of the thread? I am fearful I won't make him look bad enough and be called a tribalist for not doing so.

If you choose to respond to the subject of the thread, I promise I won't consider that tribal.

To me, the time that you seem tribal is when you refuse to discuss the subject or a thread and try to change the subject to "those other people". As I said before:

The original post makes specific claims about Trump, and a suggestion that the Republicans should find someone else. I think that a lot of the response has shown loyalty to Trump - some people seem to circle the wagons to defend Trump, changing the subject to how they feel about Barr or Biden. This happens in a LOT of threads. I have issues with both Barr and Biden, but I also think that Barr had a front row seat to observe Trump, and it's worth asking whether he is speaking truth. Or not. How could we know?

Suppose we wanted to discuss the original post. We might, for instance, want to discuss what members of Trump's own Administration and campaign have said about him, what people like Steve Bannon and Tucker Carlson say about him in private, what his own chief of staff, defense secretary, secretary of state, or chief strategist have said about these same claims. Is it just Barr, or is this something that a whole lot of people who worked for Trump agree on? Are there other ways we could evaluate these claims?

To me, the thing that feels tribal is a combination of:

1. Changing the subject to another person in the thread or to "the other side"
2. Framing it in strong, negative emotion
3. Acting like someone who actually wants to discuss the subject of the thread is somehow doing something wrong by doing that

No need to agree with me about the subject, I'm fine with multiple points of view.

[temporal1]

.. Because of this, no one ever needs to personally answer for the bad policies that they enact. .. ..
.. Rarely if ever does a politician say, "I really messed up bad. I am sorry."
or "I really let the country down while I was in power and I am going to step out and let someone else lead instead."

Until society gets back to that design, I'm doubtful things are going to evolve into a better society.

When would you say society had the design that you would idealize them getting back to?

Whenever it was common for most children to have both undivorced parents in the home
and whenever it was a shame to have sex outside of marriage
and whenever church was a very important entity in communities.

Let every policy and policy maker that contributed to widespread FATHERLESSNESS as the cultural norm be identified, apologized for, walked back, the incompetent and corrupt stepping down - in humility and voluntarily.

[Grace]

@Grace

The problem is that nearly everyone supports good policies. Nearly everybody thinks their favored candidate's policies are good and the other party's are bad.
Because of this, no one ever needs to personally answer for the bad policies that they enact. They can always blame the other party or their predecessor for why bad things happen during their time in power. Rarely if ever does a politician say, "I really messed up bad. I am sorry." or "I really let the country down while I was in power and I am going to step out and let someone else lead instead."

Most people seem to have the opinion that if their preferred majority party candidate was in power and could do things the way he wanted, bad things would not happened.
There is a segment of society that does not believe this and I am one of them. I think this is a very naive view of the world.

We can't look into the future so we don't know what will happen under any candidate down the road. The best way to assess what a future leader will be like, is to study their past. (Although that is not always fool proof, either). And when I say that, I am referring to policies, not personal lives. So the question is, under which of the future presidential candidates and their past policies, did the American people, the migrants, the Ukrainian people etc., suffer less?

[Dan Z]

Let every policy and policy maker that contributed to widespread FATHERLESSNESS as the cultural norm be identified, apologized for, walked back, the incompetent and corrupt stepping down - in humility and voluntarily.

Frankly, "political policy" seems well down the list behind personal morality/responsibility, family stability, and church/community when it comes to causes of FATHERLESSNESS in American society. I think we overstate the role of politics as causal most of the time - politics is usually more of a symptom than a cause.

[temporal1]

Let every policy and policy maker that contributed to widespread FATHERLESSNESS as the cultural norm be identified, apologized for, walked back, the incompetent and corrupt stepping down - in humility and voluntarily.

Frankly, "political policy" seems well down the list behind personal morality/responsibility, family stability, and church/community when it comes to causes of FATHERLESSNESS in American society. I think we overstate the role of politics as causal most of the time - politics is usually more of a symptom than a cause.

Thankfully, there are many who recognized this problem ‘way before i became aware, and many are invested in correcting the problems, as overwhelming as they appear: i pray for them ..

Fatherlessness ..
viewtopic.php?t=2510

On this forum mostly of responsible engaged fathers, it may be difficult to relate. But, on the streets, the results are “hot.”

No-fault divorce, cheap+free birth control pills (even for children), abortion, gov support on the condition of no present father, free gov childcare, all these policies upended traditional morals and family+societal structures - unintended consequences. Resulting in men being rendered obsolete as husbands+fathers.

Most of these policies did not result from need but for untested EXPERIMENTS. Also, RX sales. They initiated problems.

2023 / Chicago teens out partying ..
https://deadline.com/2023/04/chicago-te ... 235327399/

Living a couple of hours south of Chicago, the sense i got about these teens was that fatherless homes was central.
Notice, these teens are not hungry, aren’t in rags, have latest technology, they lack for nothing. Except for morality and self discipline that fathers (as a generalization) model and demand. These destructive self-indulgent parties are a disgrace no responsible father would tolerate.

8 years ago / Baltimore mother

^^i’m glad i never experienced anything like this, but, i can’t criticize this mother .. and, how i admire her son for respecting her admonitions. good young man in a difficult spot. i hope others noticed, too.

i pray for the many who are doing their best to counteract decades of poor political decisions that have devastated life for so many.

[Ernie]

We can't look into the future so we don't know what will happen under any candidate down the road. The best way to assess what a future leader will be like, is to study their past. (Although that is not always fool proof, either). And when I say that, I am referring to policies, not personal lives. So the question is, under which of the future presidential candidates and their past policies, did the American people, the migrants, the Ukrainian people etc., suffer less?

Ok. Thanks for that.
We do look at politics differently. I see the political system as a big, tangled web that limits what one person or one party can accomplish while in power. With politicians not being able to do what they want to do, nor "able" to apologize for anything significant without it hurting their future political prospects and their party, we are left with a system that makes big mistakes no matter who is in power. The good side is that the big, tangled web with various checks and balances, does keep one leader from physically assassinating his opponent. From this viewpoint, I would rather be here than in many other countries in the world.

[temporal1]

Ernie:
.. With politicians not being able to do what they want to do, nor "able" to apologize for anything significant without it hurting their future political prospects and their party, we are left with a system that makes big mistakes no matter who is in power. ..

The point of honor is, no guarantees of an earthly safety net. The willingness to accept temporal negative consequences with faith of greater eternal rewards.

It’s what makes honor so respected. The satisfaction of doing the right thing.