Biden's New Border Policy

[joshuabgood]

That isn’t a speculative example. That’s exactly what happened in the JM situation, and has happened with many other abusers.

Abused victims are told to practice “suffering love”.

People like myself who speak up on their behalf are told they are unforgiving, holding the past against someone, and so on.

When an abuser is finally in the courtroom, the plain people beg for leniency.

The victims are discarded and forgotten; in one sordid case I was involved with, the same people who promote “suffering love” and “forgiveness” called her a “whore”, a “b****”, and when she got pregnant with her boyfriend, her child a “b*****d”.

The abuser escaped prosecution. The plain people rallied around him and interfered with the court proceedings, despite him having a taped confession.

jbg, that is the wicked fruit of the “suffering love” theology; the lack of justice in “restorative justice”.

Here is the truth about following Jesus: if you disobey him and don’t follow him, you face eternal punishment. There is a side to Jesus and God besides just suffering love: there is a side of a righteous judge who will condemn sin and cast unrepentant sinners out into everlasting darkness.

I'll take that as a statement - and if you want me to respond to question I'll be happy to do so.

[Josh]

Your response feels combative to me but I am not sure why you would feel that defensive.

I have become combative and defensive after seeing victim after victim abused and discarded.

When a victim speaks to me and says, “I hate conservative Mennonites. I don’t trust them. I hate Christians.”

When a victim says, “The police can’t help me. The Mennonites will just get them on their side.”

When victims are called crude nasty names because they dare to speak up.

When young boys are abused, and a “missionary” goes on a tour with an ordained minister to reminded each of them years later that they can’t speak to the police or else they are “unforgiving” and Jesus won’t forgive them.

When hundreds of thousands of dollars meant for missions to share the gospel and Jesus’ love are embezzled by an abuser.

When I spoke up on a victim’s behalf, and was told I wasn’t forgiving because I did so.

When an abuser attacked me in front of an ordained minister for daring to speak out, and he and the minister agreed I would lose my salvation unless I “forgave”, remained silent, and recanted my (truthful) accusations.

My friend, this system is not the way of Jesus. It is not “suffering love”, but it is rather “suffering a witch to live”, to use a verse from the OT.

It is not “restorative justice”. It is injustice.

[Josh]

OK, jbg, here is the question: law enforcement uses force, and indeed must use it when arresting, prosecuting, and executing or confining a convicted abuser.

As a Christian, how do you reconcile this with your philosophy of “suffering love”?

[joshuabgood]

Your response feels combative to me but I am not sure why you would feel that defensive.

I have become combative and defensive after seeing victim after victim abused and discarded.

When a victim speaks to me and says, “I hate conservative Mennonites. I don’t trust them. I hate Christians.”

When a victim says, “The police can’t help me. The Mennonites will just get them on their side.”

When victims are called crude nasty names because they dare to speak up.

When young boys are abused, and a “missionary” goes on a tour with an ordained minister to reminded each of them years later that they can’t speak to the police or else they are “unforgiving” and Jesus won’t forgive them.

When hundreds of thousands of dollars meant for missions to share the gospel and Jesus’ love are embezzled by an abuser.

When I spoke up on a victim’s behalf, and was told I wasn’t forgiving because I did so.

When an abuser attacked me in front of an ordained minister for daring to speak out, and he and the minister agreed I would lose my salvation unless I “forgave”, remained silent, and recanted my (truthful) accusations.

My friend, this system is not the way of Jesus. It is not “suffering love”, but it is rather “suffering a witch to live”, to use a verse from the OT.

It is not “restorative justice”. It is injustice.

That makes sense to me. Though I do want to add, I don't defend what you experienced, and I feel upset by those things. I am not advocating for more of that.

[joshuabgood]

OK, jbg, here is the question: law enforcement uses force, and indeed must use it when arresting, prosecuting, and executing or confining a convicted abuser.

As a Christian, how do you reconcile this with your philosophy of “suffering love”?

Thanks for asking. I don't have a perfectly coherent response to this question. I have conflicting feelings.

In short, I believe God in his divine providence uses the kingdoms of this world (or the mafia or al Qaida or the Assyrians or Romans or Germans) to in his own ways mete out a natural justice, even though the wicked don't know what they are doing (per Isaiah). And I do obey the rulers of the kingdoms of this world insofar as they don't ask me to personally contradict the rule and reign of Christ. So therefore, I am a mandated reporter for instance, I report what needs reported. And the state will do what the state wants to do...in God's divine providence. I myself will not appropriate force or violence for any of the above...arresting, prosecuting, or punishing. I won't serve on a jury or recommend punishments. Nor do I believe that holds redemptive salvation value.

I don't consider myself allegiant to laws, policies, doctrines that would cause me to personally contradict the rule and reign of Christ.

We are commanded to treat the foreigner as the native and love him as ourselves. So we should...rules for the state notwithstanding.

[Josh]

Yet the problem I have is that the witness and testimony of plain people who have attempted to live out this “suffering love” is quite poor: it means criminals are allowed to run rampant whilst their victims get told over and over to “forgive”.

The church ends up transforming into a criminal protection society that shields evil men from the God-ordained role of the magistrate to be a “terror to evildoers”.

How do you reconcile this? This is not theoretical - this is the lived experience of trying to apply your “suffering love” theology.

[GaryK]

Open borders is a political/legal policy. Suppose I advocate for believers (1)"if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well" and (2) everyone should follow Jesus, does it follow that I advocate the legal dissolution of private property rights.

I think the difference is that you are primarily focused on advocating for believers to take on Kingdom values, which I'm on board with, but JBG seems to be making the case that we advocate for earthly governments and earthly systems to adopt these Kingdom values and that in doing so, that will bring about the reign of Jesus' Kingdom on earth.

I am advocating for everyone everywhere, every business, economy, polity, and society, adopt the full Kingdom principles and yield to the rule and reign of Jesus. Every knee bow and every tongue confess. To the extent that that is done, salvation is brought to earth as also in heaven.

When that fully happens the geopolitical nation states, with their artificial borders, will be ended.

Yes and yes. I don't see a conflict between what I wrote/am thinking, and what Harlan captured in nice short way. Whatever position anybody or entity finds itself in, I advocate that they start implementing the Kingdom principles, that is having allegiance to Jesus, and that those actions will usher in more heaven on earth than what is currently in place. And pieces of those folks/entities will then start becoming under the rule and reign of Christ. (However, I am not endorsing nation-state (that kingdoms of this world) theories (violence and coercion) of social change (that is salvation)).

I think, should the centurion, or King Agrippa, begin to yield to King Jesus...they can stay in their positions "as long as they can" - meaning the sorting will occur when/as they refuse to kill their fellowman on the battlefield, or in the electric chair, or as they refuse to enforce geopolitical machinations (including border manipulation) for the cause of the nation state. We don't read though that Paul or Jesus or Peter, ever led with you need to "leave this position." Or, "you and your kingdom are ordained of God to be a terror to evil works so keep up the good work so do it righteously." Instead it just seemed understood, that as one comes under the Lordship of Jesus, an allegiance shift would be underway that would naturally sort itself out.

The truth is, folks that implement the Jesus Kingdom, will never last long in the Kingdoms of this World. Those kingdoms want nothing of it. They desire to use force to protect their way of life. They desire retribution. They desire America first. As a simple example, when Ron Paul, years ago noted that the "blowback" by the Al Qaida on 9-11 makes historical sense when you review American foreign policy in the 20th century, it buried his political chances. (There are many historical examples like this...Jimmy Carter, who in a myriad of ways reflected Jesus much more than did Ronald Reagan, is still mocked - even though the economic malaise he inherited had same as nothing to do with his decisions and was decades in the making thanks to Keynesian economics, loose monetary policy fiat currency, and decades of war by JFK, LBJ, and Nixon.)

Barnhart specifically mentioned advocating for believers to come into alignment with Jesus' teachings...he doesn't mention advocating for earthly governments to adopt Kingdom values and to me that is a significant difference.

I too, believe that individuals who follow Jesus cannot remain in earthly governmental positions and continue conducting its affairs. Jesus is clear that His Kingdom is not of this world. To attempt to transform earthly governments into the likeness of Jesus' Kingdom is antithetical to the two-kingdom idea. The sorting you mention that will take place will happen because individuals are being transformed, not governments. Now, if the goal is to call so many people out of darkness into Jesus' Kingdom that earthly governments are no longer needed, that's a different story. But Jesus' own words in Matthew about the narrow and broad ways do not seem to paint a picture of that happening.

When in the history of the NT Church do you see a successful transforming of an earthly government into the likeness of Jesus' Kingdom? I don't think it's even possible for that to happen nor should we attempt to do so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that you think it is possible.

[GaryK]

I'm not saying it's inevitable that people will lose faith by coming to America and I'm sure there are many who do retain their faith. But the America of today is significantly different than it was in the days of the settlers and I'm guessing it was easier to live out Kingdom values in America then than it was in Europe.

Today, if someone new to the faith would ask me what country is most conducive to being able to live out Kingdom values, I would not suggest that it's America.

I don't disagree with you. Some countries make it harder to live out Kingdom values. I would suggest, though, that the person you know who came to the US and lost out spiritually may have struggled to keep his faith in the country where he was before. A person can have the American dream in his heart, regardless of whether or not he is in America.

Yes, I have seen people in these poorer countries lose faith as well.

The pastor I mentioned whose wife left him, came to America with the intent of remaining in an Anabaptist church and did so for a time, but eventually moved his family to a different area to pursue citizenship and I believe that is where his wife left him.

Something I found very troubling in both Liberia and Belize is the influence that TV and later the internet had on people who became discontent with their way of life because of what was portrayed about America.

[barnhart]

JBG is pushing me a little further than I like, but it's good to be pushed toward the lordship of Jesus. I hesitate at the confidence of installing Jesus values into public policy. Even if the value is something good, like the temperance movement, it doesn't follow that it will make good public policy. I come down more on the side of JH Yoder's three levels of unknowns, we don't know how to chart the progress of civilization, we don't know the specific levers to pull to get there and we don't even know where " there" is, (what does God want to accomplish with our civilization in our time).

However I do admire to rugged nature of his commitment to kingdom values. Maybe I'll get there eventually. It's not the values I fear, it is the mode of promotion.

[Ernie]

I interact with a wide variety of people every week. Some are Christians. Some are not. Some are searching and seeking.

My goal in all of my interactions is to help...
-hardened atheists become civil atheists
-civil atheists become agnostics
-agnostics become ietsists
-ietsists become theists
-theists become monotheists
-monotheists become believers in the God of the Bible
-believers in the God of the Bible to become believers in Jesus
-believers in Jesus become followers of Jesus
-followers of Jesus become better followers of Jesus.

From my perspective, helping people move from one level to the next is progress. Sometimes the progression happens very fast. Other times the changes happen incrementally.

Anything a person learns along the way that is based on the character of God is one less thing he will need to learn once he becomes a followers of Jesus. So the more he/she learns now, the better. And the better his village, town, region will be as a result of his goodness.

I agree with JBG that to whatever degree civil leaders adapt their methods and worldview to match the heart and character of God, the better this world will be.

One man I interact with currently plans to run for president in his country some day.(Rwanda) He has the connections and charisma to win. In the last few years he has distanced himself from Islam, but he is not yet ready to accept the God of the Bible as the only God. He has been learning about what makes communities flourish and how some communities resort to barbarianism.
I consider all of this progress as long as he is putting off falsehood and embracing truth.