Respect for Marriage Act

[Ken]

Virtually none of this actually, or simply, or directly, addresses what I wrote.

Envy and wealth are two sides of the same coin.

The larger point is that we spend an enormous amount of time here targeting what is maybe 5% of the population for sins that we conveniently are not tempted by while ignoring all the elephants in the room so to speak.

Disapprove of gay people if you must. I really don't care. Neither do they for the most part. You can find some weak support for that position in the Bible if you squint. But the amount of effort devoted to it here is just beyond all proportion. We are 20+ years into this and I'm still frankly surprised that whole churches and conferences have broken up over this subject. That just strikes me as the opposite of everything that Jesus taught.

[RZehr]

Virtually none of this actually, or simply, or directly, addresses what I wrote.

Envy and wealth are two sides of the same coin.

Yet one can have envy without any coin at all. Is there anyone seriously promoting the idea that envy is virtuous?

People may say, well it’s not actually envy that is motivating me, it’s not actually envy that I am experiencing. And then go one and frame it differently. I get that. That may happen. But who is actually saying that yes, I have envy, and it is not a sin, it is a virtue, and Christianity needs to change their bigoted and hatful views towards envious people? And celebrate just how envious we are.
No one is saying that. And if the day comes when it happens, then we can expect to see the church resist that too. And we may expect to see much arguments over the matter. No argument is needed where there is agreement.

You are free to start a thread on the elephant on the room topics. If there is disagreement, there will probably be discussion. I’m surprised to see a suggestion that people on this forum are too shy to argue about something.

[Ken]

People may say, well it’s not actually envy that is motivating me, it’s not actually envy that I am experiencing. And then go one and frame it differently. I get that. That may happen. But who is actually saying that yes, I have envy, and it is not a sin, it is a virtue, and Christianity needs to change their bigoted and hatful views towards envious people? And celebrate just how envious we are.

Who is actually saying I have envy and it is not a sin?

There is a whole prosperity gospel out there in fact that millions of Christians follow.

And they worship mammon in palaces like these. Where they listen to preachers tell them wealth is a gift from God.

[RZehr]

People may say, well it’s not actually envy that is motivating me, it’s not actually envy that I am experiencing. And then go one and frame it differently. I get that. That may happen. But who is actually saying that yes, I have envy, and it is not a sin, it is a virtue, and Christianity needs to change their bigoted and hatful views towards envious people? And celebrate just how envious we are.

Who is actually saying I have envy and it is not a sin?

There is a whole prosperity gospel out there in fact that millions of Christians follow.

And they worship mammon in palaces like these

You may think it’s envy. I may think it’s envy. But the point is, do they think it’s envy? Do they believe they are promoting envy? I doubt it, I expect that they would clutch their pearls and utterly deny such an accusation. Much less embrace the charge and the label. They’d more likely charge for libel.

[Ken]

You may think it’s envy. I may think it’s envy. But the point is, do they think it’s envy? Do they believe they are promoting envy? I doubt it, I expect that they would clutch their pearls and utterly deny such an accusation. Much less embrace the charge and the label.

Sort of like how LGBT Christians believe that they too are created in God's image and believe the scriptures when they read: "“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Who are we to question them or to claim as Josh did upstream that God wishes them dead?

[RZehr]

You may think it’s envy. I may think it’s envy. But the point is, do they think it’s envy? Do they believe they are promoting envy? I doubt it, I expect that they would clutch their pearls and utterly deny such an accusation. Much less embrace the charge and the label.

Sort of like how LGBT Christians believe that they too are created in God's image and believe the scriptures when they read: "“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Who are we to question them or to claim as Josh did upstream that God wishes them dead?

I don’t understand. Are you saying LGBT is similar to the prosperity gospel, with regard to what the Bible teaches?

[Ken]

You may think it’s envy. I may think it’s envy. But the point is, do they think it’s envy? Do they believe they are promoting envy? I doubt it, I expect that they would clutch their pearls and utterly deny such an accusation. Much less embrace the charge and the label.

Sort of like how LGBT Christians believe that they too are created in God's image and believe the scriptures when they read: "“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Who are we to question them or to claim as Josh did upstream that God wishes them dead?

I don’t understand. Are you saying LGBT is similar to the prosperity gospel, with regard to what the Bible teaches?

No, I am saying we don't find fault and attempt to persecute every other type of Christian with whom we might disagree, such as those prosperity followers driven by greed and wealth. In fact we promote them and elect them president. We don't break up churches because there are wealthy people in our midst. We are more likely to elect them to leadership positions frankly. Why is welcoming or at least being civil to LGBT people the one thing so many Christians have chosen to go to battle over?

I still find it astonishing and within my extended family I have seen whole families break apart over that topic. Not even because someone in the family was LGBT. But simply because someone in the family chose to attend a church that welcomed LGBT members. I have a cousin who is completely ostracized by her family because she and her husband choose to attend an LGBT friendly church. I can't reconcile that level of hate to anything resembling Christianity.

[temporal1]

That is because no one on this forum really disagrees that envy is sinful. Discussion happens where there is disagreement. In society too, no churches are being split because some want to condone envy. No denominations are promoting envy, and saying we should accept and promote and celebrate diversity of this matter.

And there is no group, or as Temp might put it, organized political blocs, who are wholly devoted to the promotion of envy, and who are demanding that Christians change their 2,000 year old teachings that envy is sinful in favor of the absolute opposite.

If i’m not mistaken, you seem to understand what i wrote.

[temporal1]

.. that level of hate ..

just because “the script” labels it hate doesn’t make it so.
it can be different things, including broken hearts.

[temporal1]

Josh:
Because the New Testament teaches that homosexuality is against God’s righteous decree, and those that do such things deserve to die, and also those who encourage and promote such things. The Bible says we cannot promote homosexuality.

i'm conflicted about this statement.
not the part that says homosexuality is against God's righteous decree.

but the rest of that statement that seems to indicate that people deserve to die. and that we are free to hate and maybe even do the killing.
i keep thinking about the woman taken in adultery. the big shots said she deserved to die. that was the worst sin that a woman could do, back in those days.
and did Jesus agree? did He tell these people to put her to death?
NO, he showed mercy.

and maybe the reason i'm so conflicted, is if i change out homosexuality to pedophilia, i tend to feel the same way. those folks can't ever be trusted, and they deserve to die. they deserve to be cast out, and to lose their family and church and support base.
but they are still PEOPLE.

and so i don't know the answer to much of anything. maybe you all can help me.

(i think) a whole lot of us need to be rethinking what Josh has been trying to point out.
“something’s not right,” as can be seen by the fruits of what we’ve been doing.

There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging confusion then seeking guidance and clarity. That’s honorable. In God’s eyes.
Pray for the Holy Spirit to lead.

RZehr has some worthwhile input, P.33: http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=320