Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
undershepherd
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by undershepherd »

Yes Edsel, I did read those before I posted. I also read what Briarwood has been doing and it is basically the same thing. EMU hires off duty officers to patrol the grounds etc. They refer any arrests to local Police Depts. Briarwood has been doing the same thing and is proposing that since they have difficulty finding enough off duty officers to handle the security that they be allowed to hire their own officers - but the officers would still refer arrests to local Police Depts.
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Hats Off
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by Hats Off »

To those of us who ascribe to a non-resistant belief, it is difficult to understand. To old order folks, the obvious solution would be to keep things on a smaller scale, thus avoiding more of these types of issues.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

undershepherd wrote:Yes Edsel, I did read those before I posted. I also read what Briarwood has been doing and it is basically the same thing. EMU hires off duty officers to patrol the grounds etc. They refer any arrests to local Police Depts. Briarwood has been doing the same thing and is proposing that since they have difficulty finding enough off duty officers to handle the security that they be allowed to hire their own officers - but the officers would still refer arrests to local Police Depts.
You only need sworn officers if you want guns. Washington Bible College had night security, who had a whistle and a radio when I was there. No guns, or even a nightstick. If anything requiring the potential of an arrest, call the police.

The point is Briarwood wants guns, and wants to control where those guns are and have a voice in what they do.

Otherwise, unarmed security would be fine. My question is why guns?

In my former Christian and Missionary Alliance church, we had members who wanted an armed member present at all services, in case someone came in to steal the offering. Elders responded by banning all guns on the premise except for sworn officers in the course of their duty.

My personal response-there is nothing we have worth killing someone over.

J.M.
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temporal1
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by temporal1 »

Hats Off wrote:To those of us who ascribe to a non-resistant belief, it is difficult to understand.
To old order folks, the obvious solution would be to keep things on a smaller scale, thus avoiding more of these types of issues.
my preference, also.
the more i read of how life was for Jesus and His apostles, the more i realize, their experiences were often in congested urban areas - where police were+are a necessity. :-|
Jesus does not dispute the necessity, and offers wise instructions for response.

separately, it's a leap to conclude "if guns are present, people are killed."
people are killed when no guns are present, also. as in Genesis, and throughout scriptures.
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Josh
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by Josh »

temporal1 wrote:separately, it's a leap to conclude "if guns are present, people are killed."
people are killed when no guns are present, also. as in Genesis, and throughout scriptures.
Someone who is carrying a pistol indoors is intending to use it, if they see the need. If my stance is I am nonresistant and don't kill people, there isn't a reason to carry a pistol indoors or on security patrols.

In a place with wild animals where there aren't other people around, that's a different topic. Briarwood is not talking about animal control.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by ken_sylvania »

temporal1 wrote: separately, it's a leap to conclude "if guns are present, people are killed."
people are killed when no guns are present, also. as in Genesis, and throughout scriptures.
I'm sure I don't know why these folks would want their security people to have guns, if not to shoot people with. Maybe a plague of rabid groundhogs...
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EdselB
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by EdselB »

temporal1 wrote:EdselB, did you read the link undershepherd shared?
the content seems very similar to the helpful quotes you shared .. regarding existing reliance on and cooperation with community police.
Yes I did read the article that undershepherd referenced.

Undershepherd wrote
Yes Edsel, I did read those before I posted. I also read what Briarwood has been doing and it is basically the same thing. EMU hires off duty officers to patrol the grounds etc. They refer any arrests to local Police Depts. Briarwood has been doing the same thing and is proposing that since they have difficulty finding enough off duty officers to handle the security that they be allowed to hire their own officers - but the officers would still refer arrests to local Police Depts.
My apologies. I wrongly assumed from the conclusions you had drawn previously that you hadn’t.

I see two significant differences between what Briarwood is asking and the policies of the above mentioned Mennonite colleges, according to the CNN article which states:
The Alabama Senate voted Tuesday to allow Briarwood Presbyterian Church to hire fully deputized officers who would carry weapons and have the authority to make arrests.
First is the power to arrest and detain. As I read both the articles about Briarwood, it seems it is asking for an institutional based police force with authority to arrest and detain persons, who would then to be handed over to the local city police.

None of the security or safety officials on the Mennonite campuses have the authority to arrest and detain. They have to do the same thing any citizen would have to do if they see a crime occurring, call the local police.

As to whether EMU hires off-duty policemen as Briarwood presently does, I suppose I could just go with your say so, but can you tell me how you know this? Even so, if there is a correlation between what Briarwood is presently doing and what EMU is presently doing—hiring off-duty police officers--the point of the requested legislation before the AL legislature is that Briarwood is asking for something more—“ fully deputized officers who would carry weapons and have the authority to make arrests.”

None of the security or safety officials on the Mennonite campuses are armed.

The lawyer for Briarwood, states:
The language of the bill echoes the language of the law allowing colleges to have their own police departments, he said. Briarwood has two large campuses, with the church and Birmingham Theological Seminary off Acton Road at Interstate 459, and at the affiliated Briarwood Christian School on Cahaba Valley Road.
It should be noted here that Briarwood legal case for the legislation is based on its operating educational institutions, not because it is a church. While AL and PA are different states, I will note that Shippensburg University has a University Police, who
have full authority to enforce all state and federal laws, as well as any applicable university policies. The University Police Department is the police department of jurisdiction on the Shippensburg University campus. University police authority includes the power of arrest on campus property.
See under campus Safety Reports @ http://www.ship.edu/police/

I can also state from personal observation that the Shippensburg University Police are armed. SU doesn’t have a jail, so if the SU police arrested any persons they would have to be sent to the county jail, similar to what Briarwood lawyer said, it would have to do if Briarwood's police arrested anyone.
It would not involve a jail or other facilities - basically an officer and an official car, he said. "I couldn't imagine it would be something more than that," Johnston said. "If there is an arrest on campus, the local jurisdiction would be called and they would come pick the person up."
Briarwood request seems more in accord with the powers that SU police have. Therefore I think to make the correlation that what Briarwood wants with the proposed legislation is similar to the current security and safety policies at the various Mennonite colleges is incorrect.
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temporal1
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by temporal1 »

ken_sylvania wrote:
temporal1 wrote: separately, it's a leap to conclude "if guns are present, people are killed."
people are killed when no guns are present, also. as in Genesis, and throughout scriptures.
I'm sure I don't know why these folks would want their security people to have guns, if not to shoot people with. Maybe a plague of rabid groundhogs...
i'm not convinced.
for folks who are not CO, never thought about it, don't think about it, guns are a means to deterrence of crime, including violent crime.

i don't have sources, but, knowing the vast numbers of guns LEGALLY owned, including those legally used in law enforcement/peace keeping, the huge majority surely must never be used against others (??) - or the funeral business would be the biggest business of all (??)

who knows about guns owned illegally.
i would guess, even those might not be used for violence as emotions might guess.
after all, to use them risks being caught, having weapons removed, and imprisonment;
so, the incentive to "keep them quiet" (not used) is pretty great.

i've never owned a gun, no plans to do so, i'm just interested in how things really are, as opposed to perceptions. i do not agree that anyone who owns a weapon of any description has vowed to use it, not even to kill an animal.

i understand, formal oaths are required of police; that does not translate into "unfettered" use of weapons, and, by law, training opposes this!

either way, evidently, CO campus policy is to call local police when needed/wanted, is there a difference between having on-site security or relying on local police? (it seems to have a lot to do with numbers of people present and budgets.) i'm sure, numbers of incidents requiring intervention is a factor; not all groups of people are equally law abiding.

when i was young, ignorant of CO's, i so loathed any type of gun, i wanted them all to be gathered+melted down to never be used again. i might have made DanZ look like a war monger. :shock:

i wouldn't say my heart has changed. my recognition+understanding of reality has.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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joshuabgood
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by joshuabgood »

Dan Z wrote:
undershepherd wrote:Just to put this in perspective, most large Mennonite institutions of higher learning have similar practices/procedures. Again, I am not saying it is right or that I would defend the practice. But don't be so quick to blame a certain brand of theology for producing this practice when various denominations from various theological streams do the same thing.
I agree undershepherd with not blaming reformed theology in particular for the choice to arm a church complex. The decision could easily been made by any church that embraces the use of the sword - as most do in this country. For example, there has been a push of late by gun rights advocates in a number of church circles to change laws that restrict concealed firearms in houses of worship.

Beyond the issue of arming churches however is the intermingling of civil force and ecclesiastical authority - and we all know how that tends to go.

However, do Mennonite institutions really have armed security guards on campus? Which ones? Honestly, I'd be hugely disappointed if this is the case.
Just to add a bit here...strictly speaking, no, it isn't Reformed Theology only (with a capital R and T). However, pretty much most of the evangelical/protestant circles are heavily influenced by Lutheran thinking and the so-called, 5 sola's. Even at Liberty University (not Reformed by long shot), the Lutheran and Calvinistic thinking was strong. And this emphasis on right belief and "by faith only," became the good news rather than actually following Jesus and building his kingdom. This version of Christianity results in virtually no ethical or behavioral implications. Though I don't agree with everything he writes, Denny Weaver did some good work on this in his book, A Nonviolent Atonement. Interestingly, Piper called out Falwell for Falwell's thoughts regarding using force against the Muslims. However, if you read his letter carefully, at the end of the day Falwell's position is no different that Piper's. The tone is different but the substance of the position is not. It's just that Falwell is more outspoken (some might rightfully say brash) than is Piper.

This "right theology" of Luther and Calvin, allows for the use of violence (as is this case) the use of oaths (as in this case), and in earlier examples, race based slavery, burning witches, killing "the savages," torturing quakers/other religions, enforcing Jim Crow, speaking ill of Jews, supporting the wars of a pagan kingdom (UsA), etc.

Not to be unnecessarily harsh, but to, at the same time, point out in disruptive way, that reformed theology and Lutheran thinking that extends in forms far beyond the Reformed Presbyterian world, does, I think, result in a certain blindness. They don't see any internal inconsistency that men, who are sworn by oaths carrying loaded weapons with authorization to kill in the names of Jesus, are followers of Jesus, whom taught exactly the opposite. To them this behavior is perfectly consistent with their theology, five sola's, penal substitutionary atonement, and the whole nine yards. That's because it is. There is, at the end of the day, no ethical implications for statements like, "Jesus was 100% God and 100% man." Or statements like this, "Jesus had a teachable soul." Or we are saved by faith alone. Therefore, statements, "right or wrong," have little implications on what it means to be a follower of Jesus and are therefore more trivial points of what it means to be a Christian.
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Sudsy
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Re: Alabama Church asks permission to have Police Force

Post by Sudsy »

I guess I completely missed why DanZ had trouble with a church having armed protection. I really thought most Anabaptists would not support being protected when in a church because basically we are not to live in fear. The very odd occasion, someone will come into a church and shoot up some people. The chances and occurrences of this happening are soooo rare and few. 'In God we trust". Really ?
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