Do either of you believe that Derek intended to kill George that day by cutting off his air? Do you think that was his intended outcome that day?
He certainly didn't seem to be that interested in keeping him alive. He assaulted Floyd with reckless disregard for his life, and Floyd died. Beyond that, I think it's splitting hairs.
During the trial of Derek Chauvin, there was evidence presented that indicated George Floyd was held in a prone position with Chauvin's knee on his neck for approximately 9 minutes and 29 seconds. This period of time, during which George Floyd was restrained in this manner, extended even after Floyd appeared to lose consciousness. Witnesses, including bystanders who were present at the scene and law enforcement officials who testified during the trial, described how Chauvin's knee remained on Floyd's neck for an extended period, even after Floyd appeared to lose consciousness.
This was a key point of contention during the trial, as it was central to the prosecution's argument that Chauvin's actions were a substantial factor in causing George Floyd's death. The jury ultimately found Chauvin guilty on multiple charges related to Floyd's death, including second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder, and second-degree manslaughter.
The trial and its outcomes generated significant public discussion and debate about police conduct, use of force, and the broader issues of racial justice and policing in the United States.
Chronological Summary of George Floyd's Death:
1. Police Encounter Begins: On May 25, 2020, Minneapolis police responded to a report of a counterfeit $20 bill being used at a convenience store. George Floyd was in a vehicle with two passengers when he was approached by the police.
2. Initial Confrontation: Officers Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng approached Floyd's vehicle, and Lane pulled his gun briefly before holstering it. Floyd was asked to exit the vehicle.
3. Floyd's Resistance: As George Floyd was being taken into custody, he resisted arrest and initially refused to get into the police car. Officers attempted to get him into the vehicle, leading to a struggle.
4. Chauvin's Arrival: Derek Chauvin, a senior officer, arrived at the scene as backup. Floyd was eventually taken out of his own vehicle.
5. Knee on Neck: Derek Chauvin placed his knee on George Floyd's neck as Floyd lay on the ground, face down. This action occurred after Floyd was handcuffed and on the ground.
6. Complaints of Breathlessness: George Floyd repeatedly complained that he couldn't breathe and called out for his mother. Bystanders who witnessed the incident also expressed concerns about Floyd's well-being.
7. Request for Medical Assistance: Some bystanders urged Chauvin to check Floyd's pulse and called for medical assistance, stating that they believed Floyd was in distress.
8. Floyd Loses Consciousness: George Floyd gradually became unresponsive while Chauvin's knee remained on his neck. He lost consciousness.
9. Emergency Medical Response: An off-duty firefighter who was present at the scene identified herself and offered to provide medical assistance, but the officers did not immediately respond to her offer.
10. Floyd's Death: George Floyd was eventually loaded onto a stretcher and taken to the hospital. He was pronounced dead at the hospital later that day.
11. Chauvin's Arrest: Derek Chauvin was taken into custody and charged with second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder, and second-degree manslaughter in connection with Floyd's death.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Szdfan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:32 pm The death of George Floyd was a traumatic event, not necessarily because of who Floyd was, but for what his death represented -- another killing by police officers who often lack accountability in these kinds of cases. The fact that Chauvin, Thao and others were held accountable was deeply significant for many people.
Since police are allowed to legally use force in our society, accountability is important to maintain trust. It's a police state if there is no police accountability.
I agree with this.
RZehr, i appreciate the points and questions you’re raising.
i hesitate on Szd’s assessment, not that i don’t empathize, but, as much as a police state is unwanted, accountability is imperative, likewise, mob rule must be rejected.
No one should be tried+judged for others’ crimes. No question, the temptation is strong. It’s understandable.
That doesn’t make it right.
In my view, UNIONS need to be under the legal microscope for culpability. In every case.
They are weasels to stand back while individuals face charges. Then, they continue as tho nothing happened.
As i recall, Derek C had quite a list of complaints as an officer, WHY WAS HE RETURNED TO ACTIVE DUTY? over+over?
i don’t sense he had intent or premeditation, i sense he was fairly incompetent for the job, poor judgment. Manslaughter, maybe.
Scapegoat? What’s the definition?
Police are not EMTs or school teachers. Not fire fighters.
Years ago, a fire fighter friend, informally advised us:
“Don’t call police for medical aid! They will stand there and watch you die.”
^^That’s grim, and i have no idea how truthful. i haven’t forgotten it.
i also realize, there seems to be a fairly universal (disdain?) between police and firefighters. They’re first responders, they cooperate, but each inwardly believes they’re better. (The forum’s first responders may add to/correct.)
Another take on it:
The Officer Tatum (retired) / George Floyd Autopsy REVEALS Derek Chauvin Knee WASN'T CAUSE Of His Death / 14min
Panic attacks can cause feelings of breathlessness, no physical stress or contact needed, no drugs or health problems needed.
i’ve experienced it.
“i can’t breathe”
has been highly exploited for political drama in this case - but, for several reasons, it’s not a complete picture.
Oficer Tatum describes how it’s routine for those who are resisting to call out all kinds of words, attempting to avoid restraint.
Errant children do this to their parents! “Let me go! i can’t breathe!”
Those words have been exploited as a media stand-alone dog whistle in this case, i have no doubt arresting officers hear such regularly, they have to deal with many things quickly, efficiently, under duress, risking their own safety.
Officers do not have health/psychiatric records of individuals before arresting them. They probably have rap sheets.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:47 pm Boot & Szdfan:
Do either of you believe that Derek intended to kill George that day by cutting off his air? Do you think that was his intended outcome that day?
He certainly didn't seem to be that interested in keeping him alive. He assaulted Floyd with reckless disregard for his life, and Floyd died.
I agree with this. But you don't want to answer the question?
i didn’t sense disinterest in keeping him alive. That is not in the officer’s best interest, at all.
If he intended murder, there were easier methods at hand.
First responders are trained to focus on their work in cool-headed ways, in the midst of EXTREME CHAOS.
i think that’s what was happening.
Do either of you believe that Derek intended to kill George that day by cutting off his air? Do you think that was his intended outcome that day?
He certainly didn't seem to be that interested in keeping him alive. He assaulted Floyd with reckless disregard for his life, and Floyd died.
I agree with this. But you don't want to answer the question?
What exactly is the difference between (1) assaulting Floyd, showing reckless disregard for his life, ignoring people who thought he was killing Floyd, ignoring appeals to let Floyd get medical assistance, not letting the EMT try to save Floyd's life and (2) murdering Floyd? That's clearly second degree murder.
How do you measure what Chauvin intended? If he didn't mean to kill Floyd, he had plenty of opportunities to reconsider what he was doing.
1 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
He certainly didn't seem to be that interested in keeping him alive. He assaulted Floyd with reckless disregard for his life, and Floyd died.
I agree with this. But you don't want to answer the question?
What exactly is the difference between (1) assaulting Floyd, showing reckless disregard for his life, ignoring people who thought he was killing Floyd, ignoring appeals to let Floyd get medical assistance, not letting the EMT try to save Floyd's life and (2) murdering Floyd? That's clearly second degree murder.
How do you measure what Chauvin intended? If he didn't mean to kill Floyd, he had plenty of opportunities to reconsider what he was doing.
Am I correct to understand that you do indeed believe that it was Dereks intention that Floyd would never again arise off that asphalt alive? Am I correct to understand that you do indeed believe that it was Dereks intention that he choke Floyd until life was extinguished from his body that day?
I agree with this. But you don't want to answer the question?
What exactly is the difference between (1) assaulting Floyd, showing reckless disregard for his life, ignoring people who thought he was killing Floyd, ignoring appeals to let Floyd get medical assistance, not letting the EMT try to save Floyd's life and (2) murdering Floyd? That's clearly second degree murder.
How do you measure what Chauvin intended? If he didn't mean to kill Floyd, he had plenty of opportunities to reconsider what he was doing.
Am I correct to understand that you do indeed believe that it was Dereks intention that Floyd would never again arise off that asphalt alive? Am I correct to understand that you do indeed believe that it was Dereks intention that he choke Floyd until life was extinguished from his body that day?
Could you please answer my questions first?
The jury heard the evidence and found him guilty of second degree murder. I think the law is quite reasonable here - if you assault someone with deadly force and that person dies as a result, can you simply say "oops, I didn't mean to kill that person when I used deadly force!"
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
What exactly is the difference between (1) assaulting Floyd, showing reckless disregard for his life, ignoring people who thought he was killing Floyd, ignoring appeals to let Floyd get medical assistance, not letting the EMT try to save Floyd's life and (2) murdering Floyd? That's clearly second degree murder.
How do you measure what Chauvin intended? If he didn't mean to kill Floyd, he had plenty of opportunities to reconsider what he was doing.
Am I correct to understand that you do indeed believe that it was Dereks intention that Floyd would never again arise off that asphalt alive? Am I correct to understand that you do indeed believe that it was Dereks intention that he choke Floyd until life was extinguished from his body that day?
Could you please answer my questions first?
The jury heard the evidence and found him guilty of second degree murder. I think the law is quite reasonable here - if you assault someone with deadly force and that person dies as a result, can you simply say "oops, I didn't mean to kill that person when I used deadly force!"
What? Answer your question first? To what end?
Do you not know what your belief is, and so you need me to help you out? How does me answering these questions, change what you believe about the intentions of Derek C. that day? This isn't a court of law, I'm just pressing you on your opinion. There isn't any consequences either way. No need to hide behind technicalities of the law here, in order to hold an opinion, or to answer a simple question.
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:05 pm
What? Answer your question first? To what end?
To stop going around in circles?
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:05 pmDo you not know what your belief is, and so you need me to help you out? How does me answering these questions, change what you believe about the intentions of Derek C. that day?
I told you what I believe - I believe that Derek Chauvin is a convicted murderer, convicted of second degree murder in a court of law. Every member of the jury believed that every element of the crime was established beyond a reasonable doubt.
You are asking me to answer a different question. And the question doesn't make sense to me. I am judging him by his actions. Given the following, what guidelines do you propose to judge intent?
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:23 pm
What exactly is the difference between (1) assaulting Floyd, showing reckless disregard for his life, ignoring people who thought he was killing Floyd, ignoring appeals to let Floyd get medical assistance, not letting the EMT try to save Floyd's life and (2) murdering Floyd? That's clearly second degree murder.
How do you measure what Chauvin intended? If he didn't mean to kill Floyd, he had plenty of opportunities to reconsider what he was doing.
I can't tell for sure what was going on in his inner dialog, but if you intentionally do the things required to kill someone, ignore people who are doing what they can to tell you that's what happening, and prevent people from saving that person's life, how is that different from intentionally killing him?
I don't have a recording of Chauvin's brainwaves. We cannot observe another person's inner dialog. But we can observe his actions.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:05 pm
What? Answer your question first? To what end?
To stop going around in circles?
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:05 pmDo you not know what your belief is, and so you need me to help you out? How does me answering these questions, change what you believe about the intentions of Derek C. that day?
I told you what I believe - I believe that Derek Chauvin is a convicted murderer, convicted of second degree murder in a court of law. Every member of the jury believed that every element of the crime was established beyond a reasonable doubt.
You are asking me to answer a different question. And the question doesn't make sense to me. I am judging him by his actions. Given the following, what guidelines do you propose to judge intent?
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:23 pm
What exactly is the difference between (1) assaulting Floyd, showing reckless disregard for his life, ignoring people who thought he was killing Floyd, ignoring appeals to let Floyd get medical assistance, not letting the EMT try to save Floyd's life and (2) murdering Floyd? That's clearly second degree murder.
How do you measure what Chauvin intended? If he didn't mean to kill Floyd, he had plenty of opportunities to reconsider what he was doing.
I can't tell for sure what was going on in his inner dialog, but if you intentionally do the things required to kill someone, ignore people who are doing what they can to tell you that's what happening, and prevent people from saving that person's life, how is that different from intentionally killing him?
I don't have a recording of Chauvin's brainwaves. We cannot observe another person's inner dialog. But we can observe his actions.
Him being a convicted murderer now, is a point of fact. And yes, I am asking you a different question, a question of honest opinion, that for some reason you are extremely loath to say.
If we had ability to record his brainwaves etc., it wouldn't be so much of opinion. I'm asking for opinion. If you don't like the circles, you could answer bluntly.
