United Airlines - Costly mistake

[Josh]

The passenger in question has a history of prescribing prescription narcotics in exchange for sex with a male patient, was suspended by the medical board after his wife turned him in, and is a convicted felon

So that means that United should feel justified in beating him up and removing him from the plane just because they want to give his seat to one of their employees?

Neither United nor Republic beat anyone up. The Chicago police did, and the officer involved is suspended and under investigation.

I think it's OK for airline employees to call the police. Are you saying they did wrong by calling the Chicago airport police?

That has nothing to do with them dragging him off the plane. They didn't know that. Whether or not this is true, it is irrelevant. And it's even worse if the poor guy now has to deal with Internet shaming based on allegations that may or may not be true.

Of course it doesn't. I'm trying to say that perhaps this person was unstable and the staff had good reasons to ask for a higher authority to intervene.

Ultimately, I don't think it works to have members of the public allowed to just sit on a plane and refuse to obey commands from airline staff to disembark. When someone decides to do that, they invite the involvement of law enforcement. And all the passenger needed to do was exit the plane.

He's a doctor, and at one point made $250k in winnings playing poker tournaments, so he is well situated to hire a lawyer to sue United if he so wishes. That's our society's remedy when you feel wronged.

When I've been IDB'd I've not been happy about it but the airline always ended up compensating me to my satisfaction. And I'm not some wealthy doctor.

[Bootstrap]

Neither United nor Republic beat anyone up. The Chicago police did, and the officer involved is suspended and under investigation.

I think it's OK for airline employees to call the police. Are you saying they did wrong by calling the Chicago airport police?

Illegal? No. Bad treatment of a customer? Yes. Put it this way: how many people on that plane are telling people that United did the right thing? How did this affect United stock?

Of course it doesn't. I'm trying to say that perhaps this person was unstable and the staff had good reasons to ask for a higher authority to intervene.

United isn't saying that. The other passengers didn't mention anything like that. The police did not make that claim.

He's a doctor, and at one point made $250k in winnings playing poker tournaments, so he is well situated to hire a lawyer to sue United if he so wishes. That's our society's remedy when you feel wronged.

When I've been IDB'd I've not been happy about it but the airline always ended up compensating me to my satisfaction. And I'm not some wealthy doctor.

Yes, that's what happens. Knowing that, did United do the right thing? The president of United doesn't think so.

Lawyers for the passenger dragged from a United Airlines (UAL, -1.10%) plane in Chicago filed an emergency request with an Illinois state court on Wednesday to require the carrier to preserve video recordings and other evidence related to the incident.
Citing the risk of "serious prejudice" to their client, Dr. David Dao , the lawyers want United and the City of Chicago, which runs O'Hare International Airport, to preserve surveillance videos, cockpit voice recordings, passenger and crew lists, and other materials related to United Flight 3411.

Chicago's Aviation Department said on Wednesday that two more officers had been placed on leave in connection with the April 9 incident, during which airport security officers dragged Dao from his seat aboard a United jet headed for Louisville, Kentucky. One officer was placed on leave on Tuesday.

Paul Callan, a civil and criminal trial lawyer in New York, said the public outcry over Dao 's treatment would likely push the airline to a quick and generous settlement. "Because United has such a catastrophic PR problem, this case has a much greater value than such a case would normally have," he said.

United Chief Executive Oscar Munoz on Wednesday apologized to Dao , his family and United customers in an ABC News interview, saying the company would no longer use law enforcement officers to remove passengers from overbooked flights.

"This can never, will never happen again," he said.

Munoz is under pressure to contain a torrent of bad publicity and calls for boycotts against United unleashed by videos that captured Dao 's rough treatment by airline and airport security staff.

Dao was removed to make room for additional crew members, United said. Footage from the incident shows Dao , bloodied and disheveled, returning to the cabin and repeating: "Just kill me. Kill me," and "I have to go home."

As of Tuesday, Dao was still in a Chicago hospital recovering from his injuries, his lawyer said.

[Josh]

It's not how I'd run an airline.

But, United is the bargain basement of Airlines. Airline CEO compensation is amongst the lowest of any industry. And ultimately the travelling public wants cheap fares, not well paid staff and well trained customer service representatives.

I predict within a year everyone will forget about this and book United when it's $50 cheaper than other airlines. Already everyone's basically forgot Delta's giant "glitch" earlier this year where they basically were shut down for two days.

Airlines do exist that don't overbook flights.
I rarely fly on them since they are more expensive and don't go on as many routes.

[Signtist]

Anyone remember United Breaks Guitars? When will they learn? Dave Carroll had some pretty good thoughts on this...

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as- ... -1.4065795

[ken_sylvania]

Air travel is regulated, so if there are no volunteers you get 4X the fare you laid or $1,350, which is exactly what happened.

Maybe the regulation needs to be changed.

- This was actually a Republic flight, not a United flight, and Republic employees

They fly under the United umbrella. This doesn't absolve United of responsibility.

- The passenger in question has a history of prescribing prescription narcotics in exchange for sex with a male patient, was suspended by the medical board after his wife turned him in, and is a convicted felon

How is this relevant?

- Air travel is really cheap. Employees often make very little money. The gate agent in question probably makes about the same as a Starbucks barista.

You'd rather get beat up by order of the $10/hour guy than the $50/hour guy????

- Incidents like this happen almost every day and it's a normal thing to call the police on a uncooperative passenger.

That doesn't mean its the best option. In some areas, it's normal for people to drive like idiots, but that doesn't mean they should.

Ultimately, it's important for there to be clear authority when it comes to air travel. Legally speaking, the airline has authority to determine who may or may not be in its aircraft. They do not use force, but the police do.

Legal often doesn't equal fair and right. United's contract of carriage provides a provision for denying boarding when necessary, but I didn't find anything about them having the contractual authority to deplane a passenger except for safety reasons. I think their legal right to do what they did is questionable.

A society doesn't function without authority. Incidentally, I fly on United and other airlines a lot. I never seem to have these kinds of issues.
Occasionally I do run into a staffer in a bad mood or who has significant training issues. Sometimes I don't get the service I paid for either.

There are remedies to deal with that. I don't go and sue at law, but usually contacting customer service fixes the issue. Some things just aren't worth fighting for, too. I treat United as a group of people who are pretty good at getting me from point A to B without any accidents. In exchange, I do not challenge those people, yell at them, and when they make an unreasonable request, like when I've been involuntarily denied boarding after already on the plane and I just want to be home, I comply. It all gets sorted out within a few hours or days.

How many times have you been IDB'd after you were already boarded?

[ken_sylvania]

Anyone remember United Breaks Guitars? When will they learn? Dave Carroll had some pretty good thoughts on this...

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as- ... -1.4065795

That's about the first thing I thought of when I read about this. I thought maybe someone could put together a song to go with the video they have...

[appleman2006]

Not sure you need another person chiming in on this but I think both sides of the discussion here have some merit.

I am appalled at how our society has arrived at the place where we all get totally enraged over every single incident even when we are not even close to being involved. Having said that a company like United should realize that that is the new normal and recognize that no one wins when one of their passengers is dragged down an isle in this way.

And so while I cannot defend United in any way, nor am I ever worried about being treated like this simply because I would refuse to ever allow myself to be put in a situation like this. In my travels particularly when on business I am very seldom in a position that an 800 dollar voucher would convince me to delay my flight but I am confident enough of my negotiating skills as well as the fact that I would take being wronged before I would allow myself to be dragged kicking and screaming from a plane.

This incident is simply a sad reflection of where our society is at IMO.

[Josh]

Air travel is regulated, so if there are no volunteers you get 4X the fare you laid or $1,350, which is exactly what happened.

Maybe the regulation needs to be changed.

Sure. But doing so will mean higher fares.

I recently bought a $29 ($29!) fare from Pittsburgh to Lancaster. And was just looking at another trip from NYC to Ohio for $97. Those are rock bottom fares, and the latter fare is partly that cheap since the airline overbooks. People regularly don't show up for flights, so it makes sense to account for that.

They fly under the United umbrella. This doesn't absolve United of responsibility.

My ticket says in big letters "OPERATED BY EXPRESSJET DOING BUSINESS AS UNITED EXPRESS". If you're saying contracted flying / code sharing is a practice that should end, I agree.

How is this relevant?

It points that this was an unstable person. Unstable people on public transportation often mean a higher authority authorised to use force is needed.

You'd rather get beat up by order of the $10/hour guy than the $50/hour guy????

I'm saying people expect an awful lot of employees who aren't well trained and aren't paid very well. And they do so by choosing to fly on very cheap fares on cheap airlines.

Expensive airlines do exist. Most people shop on price and schedule.

That doesn't mean its the best option. In some areas, it's normal for people to drive like idiots, but that doesn't mean they should.

How do you think airline staff should deal with uncooperative, violent, unruly passengers?

Ultimately, it's important for there to be clear authority when it comes to air travel. Legally speaking, the airline has authority to determine who may or may not be in its aircraft. They do not use force, but the police do.

Legal often doesn't equal fair and right. United's contract of carriage provides a provision for denying boarding when necessary, but I didn't find anything about them having the contractual authority to deplane a passenger except for safety reasons. I think their legal right to do what they did is questionable.

How many times have you been IDB'd after you were already boarded?

Twice, plus my ex wife was once.

In one case, I boarded and sat in my seat. Another passenger boarded with a boarding pass for my exact seat and demanded to sit where I was.

I got up, rang my flight attendant call bell, and let her sort it out.

She ordered the other person to get up, who at first refused. Then she said if that person and I don't get up and leave the plane, the plane is not going anywhere because "We can't be sitting in each other's laps".

Not sure what else is reasonable. Sometimes mixups happen. The airline needs absolute control over who sits where and on what planes.

Now if they regularly have mix ups, that's really bad customer service and will cost them their reputation. But mix ups do and can happen.

[temporal1]

Not sure you need another person chiming in on this but I think both sides of the discussion here have some merit.

I am appalled at how our society has arrived at the place where we all get totally enraged over every single incident even when we are not even close to being involved. Having said that a company like United should realize that that is the new normal and recognize that no one wins when one of their passengers is dragged down an isle in this way.

And so while I cannot defend United in any way, nor am I ever worried about being treated like this simply because I would refuse to ever allow myself to be put in a situation like this. In my travels particularly when on business I am very seldom in a position that an 800 dollar voucher would convince me to delay my flight but I am confident enough of my negotiating skills as well as the fact that I would take being wronged before I would allow myself to be dragged kicking and screaming from a plane.

This incident is simply a sad reflection of where our society is at IMO.

so agree, appleman. glad you posted your thoughts here.
we should all be fearful of the power of internet lynch mobs. it seems, any detail of anyone's life or business can be blown up in an instant, there is a costly ripple effect.

last week, if i recall, there was a high school in Texas "under fire" because they simply denied a grandmother the ok to attend their Prom as a "date" with her grandson!

how can schools/teachers function when they never know when some decision is going to suddenly be blown all out of proportion, no attempt at a "fair hearing?" .. many don't want a fair hearing, they just want destruction! i am bothered how this may impact quality teachers who just do not want to expose themselves to potential smears and lawsuits. the same with school staff and admin.

in this case, did they ever consider requesting the grandmother be a chaperone or guest?!
not mentioned. civilized discourse is unwanted in a feeding frenzy.

this has been predicted from the onset of the internet.
i.e., there have been questions about whether states/countries will be governable?
it was proven, long ago, pure democracies do not work.

imho, we are infants in knowing how to best use the internet. primitive!
hopefully, in future, people will look back on this and laugh. it's likely to happen.
for the sake of young ones, i hope so.

regarding airlines, millions of people over decades have been bumped from their seats.
many disgruntled, many very happy with unexpected perks, life goes on.
weather can delay flights for hours-days. life goes on.

this doctor just happened to be one with a history of problems with general defiance, he ended up with some injuries. adults who throw toddler-like tantrums likely will end up with some sort of physical injury.

United has suffered various complaints over the years. they fly a lot of passengers/miles.
they are not #1 on my list of airlines.
on this complaint, i would feel happy they removed this man before flight.
i would not care to travel with someone like that on board. in air, this man might have caused much more disturbance over .. unpredictable.

i have read, flying is a privilege, not a right, even tho passengers purchase tickets.
that a purchased ticket isn't "everything."
is this true? i'm not sure.
also, that pilots are the captains of their air ships; they have great responsibility, but also, final say.
i believe that's true. not sure.

i am very tempted to book a flight with United right now.
i'd really like to visit my family.

the courts can, and should, deal with this problem.
it's not my decision.

[Bootstrap]

And so while I cannot defend United in any way, nor am I ever worried about being treated like this simply because I would refuse to ever allow myself to be put in a situation like this. In my travels particularly when on business I am very seldom in a position that an 800 dollar voucher would convince me to delay my flight but I am confident enough of my negotiating skills as well as the fact that I would take being wronged before I would allow myself to be dragged kicking and screaming from a plane.

I'm not sure I even want my kids to be exposed to this situation. And if my wife and I were on a flight where this happens, it would pretty much shatter any good feelings for a while. This is not what you want your customers to be experiencing on a flight.

Like you, I would have given up my seat before it came to this. But that hardly excuses United. Friendly skies indeed ... did you see the shock on the faces of the other passengers, the ones who were not asked to give up their seats?