United Airlines - Costly mistake

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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Josh
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:Here's a prediction: United will be able to handle these situations peacefully without police.
Are you sure about that? Airlines call the police basically every day. I don't think it's realistic to think airlines can operate without the use of force.
What would you do if you were running the airline? Would your doctrine of non-resistance motivate you to pay the free market price of persuading someone to give up their seat, or would you use force to eject them?
I could not in good conscience run an airline, at least not under U.S. regulations.

(1) The captain and crew are expected to have complete physical control of the passengers once the plane takes off. And they operate under the authority of the owners of the airline. That means I'd be asserting that level of control. I couldn't do that.

(2) Normal airport operations require calling the police multiple times a day, often to deal with unruly, insane, or intoxicated passengers. I would not be comfortable with placing myself in a situation where I know I will need to regularly involve law enforcement to use force in order to protect mine own interests.
Pragmatically, which approach will make customers more likely to fly with you and raise your stock value?
I don't think Christians should make decisions based on what raises stock value. I don't think Christians should really have ownership in a multitude of stocks, and should very prayerfully consider and with input from a brotherhood how to even handle owning 1 or 2 stocks in a company they work for / have significant input into its operations.
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MaxPC
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

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Ernie wrote: However I was looking at this strictly from a financial perspective of a large company. I was not attempting to judge who was right and who was wrong.
There are certain universal principles at work in the world that if people give attention to, it can help their bottom line, regardless of who was in the wrong.
:up:
Agreed. I've seen those principles ignored and the person/company goes under. I've also seen successful people/companies embrace those principles and succeed beyond all expectations and against the odds.
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Josh
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

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Bootstrap wrote:the free market price of persuading someone to give up their seat
Computing free-market prices is hard, and I think the libertarian analysis of such things is usually flawed, but the free-market price of flying on an airline that overbooks is a flat $1,350, maximum.

When someone buys a ticket, it's stated in the CoC that they overbook. It's also displayed on signage at the airport. By law it has to be disclosed to a customer before they purchase.

Some airlines don't overbook. If someone doesn't accept a $1,350 maximum for an IDB, they can book on one of those airlines. That's the "free market" at work.

Of course, sometimes the free market doesn't offer a good or service someone wants. So there's no airlines that don't overbook who fly between Chicago and Louisville (to my knowledge). On the other hand, there is an airline that doesn't overbook who flies between Pittsburgh and Louisville. Same goes for Pittsburgh to Lancaster, which is a route I recently purchased.

For whatever reasons, overbooking is more available in the Pittsburgh market than Chicago. But there's a catch. Chicago flights are a lot cheaper, and you can fly a lot more nonstops from Chicago than you can from Pittsburgh. Part of providing that means saving money by overbooking flights. The airline can make more money, and thus offer lower fares, when it overbooks.
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Josh
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

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Ernie wrote:True.
However I was looking at this strictly from a financial perspective of a large company. I was not attempting to judge who was right and who was wrong.
There are certain universal principles at work in the world that if people give attention to, it can help their bottom line, regardless of who was in the wrong.
I guess I deal with the financial perspective of large companies all day, and I also deal with the disconnect between what motivates employees and individual contributors, management, and executive management and what would be "best for the company".

I think God intervenes in the affairs of men and he often has different motivations than just seeing to it that well-run companies have the best bottom line. In fact, I'd say that a well-run company making lots of profit is very, very far from the kingdom of heaven.
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RZehr
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

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Bootstrap wrote:
I'm also a little uncomfortable with using the word policy to avoid responsibility, something that businesses routinely do. If it is their policy, it is still a decision that they made. Yesterday, United took responsibility by changing their policy. They won't use police to remove you when they overbook a flight.
Most business policies are implemented only after much thought, experience and legal counsel. And since no one can think of everything, and so we as the public shouldn't explode in indignation when an anomaly occurs, and be incredulous that the airline didn't foresee such a thing. Yes, the company should modify policy when a policy isn't working.

The public is probably going to think this new policy is much superior, and that it should have been blindingly obvious that it should have been the original policy. But maybe this was the original policy, and they changed to having police involvement for a liability reasons.
And conceivably in a few years there will be another fracas and the public will pillory the airline for the same policy it lauds today.

If the policy of having law enforcement remove people from airplanes is so clearly stupid, why did no one say anything about it until now? If the public didn’t realize it was a bad policy before now, why do they expect the company that was using the policy to know it was a bad policy prior to this? It is because on its face, it really wasn’t obvious to anyone until now.

Public opinion is real and crucial for businesses. Public opinion is also arbitrary and fleeting.

I think United should change its policy in light of this incident. It seems to me that the police department should bear more blame than United.
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temporal1
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

Post by temporal1 »

Ernie wrote:True.
However I was looking at this strictly from a financial perspective of a large company.
I was not attempting to judge who was right and who was wrong.

There are certain universal principles at work in the world that if people give attention to, it can help their bottom line, regardless of who was in the wrong.
Ernie, 'was hoping you would share your thoughts about how this topic is moving along.
Could you explain what you mean with the word, "universal," here?
When i read your words, the word/phrase i'm "defaulting to" is, "politically correct."
(Or, "responding to the beast" of social media.)

i come from the view of,
this is an isolated event that would have never made "news" if not for (everyone) now being armed with cameras-cameras-cameras, sharing every breathing moment on the world stage, esp with the attitude that "e-v-e-r-y--o-n-e" is final judge+jury," facts, law, boundaries do not exist, outside of each individual's personal experience and "wisdom."

there may be no more highly government controlled and regulated industry than airlines, concentrated (a thousand times?) since 9-11-2001. commercial transportation is not considered to be "military," but, in my mind, it must be the next-closest thing to it!

if anyone objects to submitting themselves to gov regulation, avoid ALL airports, all places of public transportation. aside from divine intervention, government cannot be separated from these arenas.

one bomb threat, most people will scream for immediate gov response, so .. :-|
it's hard to have enough rules+laws to "cover" every moment of life (but, they're trying!) :shock:

(for me) traveling on public transportation requires a mindset of willingness to submit,
and, to be willing to help others along in their journeys (i notice a lot of mutual respect and care, helpfulness between people, passengers+staff, when traveling.)

i'm surprised that no other passenger volunteered his/her seat to this (doctor) .. :?
could it be they sensed he needed to be removed?

these events unfold quickly. speculation follows for days-weeks ..
speculation has become our 21st Century "National Pass Time." :P :blah:
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
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Bootstrap
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:the free market price of persuading someone to give up their seat
Computing free-market prices is hard, and I think the libertarian analysis of such things is usually flawed, but the free-market price of flying on an airline that overbooks is a flat $1,350, maximum.
Actually, computing free market prices is easy in this situation. It's called supply and demand. The free market price is the price at which the supply matches the demand.

Here's how you can compute that price for seats on an airplane ready to fly. Ask passengers if they would be willing to give up their seat for a given price. If they say no, raise the price. Keep raising the price until you have the number of seats you need. That's the price at which supply matches demand.

The $1,350 price is a price negotiated between the airlines and the government so the airlines can use force to get passengers out of their seats without paying the free market price.
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Bootstrap
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:Public opinion is real and crucial for businesses. Public opinion is also arbitrary and fleeting.

I think United should change its policy in light of this incident. It seems to me that the police department should bear more blame than United.
I agree with everything you said in this most recent post.

And certainly with your last observation:
The police force was started decades ago when the long-running Mayor Richard J. Daley allowed the chief of his bodyguard detail to retire and start an airport security force manned by people who, according to Zalewski, knew the right people at City Hall.

Even if the force survives, Burke suggested the officers' job won't be the same.

"Chicago employees should not be doing the dirty work for the Friendly Skies airline," he said.
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Josh
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:Actually, computing free market prices is easy in this situation. It's called supply and demand. The free market price is the price at which the supply matches the demand.

Here's how you can compute that price for seats on an airplane ready to fly. Ask passengers if they would be willing to give up their seat for a given price. If they say no, raise the price. Keep raising the price until you have the number of seats you need. That's the price at which supply matches demand.

The $1,350 price is a price negotiated between the airlines and the government so the airlines can use force to get passengers out of their seats without paying the free market price.
The passengers and the airline didn't agree to an auction in the event all the passengers who booked on that flight showed up.

If they did, I'd agree with you, but the price for tickets would be a lot higher. And there still have to be limits. Could the passengers all collude not to accept the airline's offer until it hit $1 million?
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Re: United Airlines - Costly mistake

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(I kind of wish someone else was posting who travels frequently and has been IDB'd.)
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