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PetrChelcicky wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:49 am Shouldn't we look at the whole matter from the opposite direction?
There are Trumpists and there are Wokeists in the population. Some of them drift to a church which is not to far from them politically. And churches (at least Evangelical churches) are for sinners, not for saints.
So the problem is not that a church attracts either Trumpists or Wokeists and that a church does not try to convert them.

But the clergy ought to support the people of both parties to "transcend" their standpoints a bit, simply how we do it here, namely by seeing: At the other end of the spectrum there are people rather like you, with the same emotional apparatus (but opposite triggers), and the Creator providex for them, too, and the Redeemer redeems them, too.

It is a chicken and egg question.

Are most churches a reflection of their population? or is the population a reflection of the church?

I don't know about Germany, but in the US there has essentially been a sorting going on for generations that seems to be accelerating. People are sorting geographically and churches are a reflection of that. A church in rural Arkansas is going to look a LOT different from one in urban Minneapolis even if they are of the same denomination.

I think perhaps that was less the case in previous generations when smaller towns had more diverse and robust economies.

Open letter to white Evangelicals: We’re done with you

This means he'll quit complaining about us... right?

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:06 pm
Are most churches a reflection of their population? or is the population a reflection of the church?

I don't know about Germany, but in the US there has essentially been a sorting going on for generations that seems to be accelerating. People are sorting geographically and churches are a reflection of that. A church in rural Arkansas is going to look a LOT different from one in urban Minneapolis even if they are of the same denomination.

I think perhaps that was less the case in previous generations when smaller towns had more diverse and robust economies.

I agree, but some of it was intentional. The mega church model of the 90's onward targeted very specific demographics. Google "the ideal Saddleback man" to see how narrow the focus has been at times. Who is surprised this has borne unexpected fruit.

Edit: I went looking for the saddleback man illustration and couldn't find it. Perhaps someone took it down. It included many details like family, race, employment, hobbies, typical clothing, neighborhood ect...

barnhart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:00 pm

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:06 pm
Are most churches a reflection of their population? or is the population a reflection of the church?

I don't know about Germany, but in the US there has essentially been a sorting going on for generations that seems to be accelerating. People are sorting geographically and churches are a reflection of that. A church in rural Arkansas is going to look a LOT different from one in urban Minneapolis even if they are of the same denomination.

I think perhaps that was less the case in previous generations when smaller towns had more diverse and robust economies.

I agree, but some of it was intentional. The mega church model of the 90's onward targeted very specific demographics. Google "the ideal Saddleback man" to see how narrow the focus has been at times. Who is surprised this has borne unexpected fruit.

Edit: I went looking for the saddleback man illustration and couldn't find it. Perhaps someone took it down. It included many details like family, race, employment, hobbies, typical clothing, neighborhood ect...

That's true.

But my point is also that, for example, the Lutheran, Methodist, and Baptist churches on the main street of some small town in Nebraska are all going to look MUCH MUCH more similar to each other than they are to their counterpart Lutheran, Methodist, and Baptist churches in urban Los Angeles or Denver.

Churches are nothing more than people and they are going to reflect the people of their communities. I just think that both rural and urban America were more culturally and politically diverse in generations past. And so churches were more diverse politically. Small towns used to be full of all kinds of professionals in addition to farmers and laborers. Not so much anymore. And cities used to be full of working class folks laboring in vast industrial jobs. Also not so much anymore.

barnhart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:00 pm

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:06 pm
Are most churches a reflection of their population? or is the population a reflection of the church?

I don't know about Germany, but in the US there has essentially been a sorting going on for generations that seems to be accelerating. People are sorting geographically and churches are a reflection of that. A church in rural Arkansas is going to look a LOT different from one in urban Minneapolis even if they are of the same denomination.

I think perhaps that was less the case in previous generations when smaller towns had more diverse and robust economies.

I agree, but some of it was intentional. The mega church model of the 90's onward targeted very specific demographics. Google "the ideal Saddleback man" to see how narrow the focus has been at times. Who is surprised this has borne unexpected fruit.

Edit: I went looking for the saddleback man illustration and couldn't find it. Perhaps someone took it down. It included many details like family, race, employment, hobbies, typical clothing, neighborhood ect...

You’re looking for a fellow by the name of Saddleback Sam.

I’m not sure the fruit borne is all that unexpected. Saddleback Sam attends, of course, Saddleback Church. That being the same Saddleback Church where Barack Obama was invited to speak several times by its pastor, Rick Warren. Him being same Rick Warren who gave the invocation at Barack Obama’s first inaugural. (These things have apparently slipped the original letter writer’s mind.)

I expect Sam has changed his political views over the last ten years. He’s also changed his wardrobe, lost the pager, and uses an iPhone now. He’s changed in the same ways and in the same directions as the rest of his neighbors in South Orange County have. Sam was never ideological in the first place and he’s still a swing voter. Well, he likes to think of himself as a swing voter.

And we could extend that across the country. Tennessee Terry was never going to vote for Obama or Hillary. And John Pavlovitz was never going to vote for McCain, Romney, or Trump.