Question re Roger Hertzler

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
joshuabgood
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Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by joshuabgood »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... 2746407c8c

Is this Roger Hertzler in the article mentioned the guy that wrote the book on non-accumulation? Just curious...
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MaxPC
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by MaxPC »

I don't know if it's the same author. However I think parent groups have a legitimate concern about the government "monitoring" the family. It's an idea that was popular in the former Soviet Union and in Communist China.

At the moment we enjoy freedom of religion and if families don't want to do high school because of their faith, they can.

The idea being pushed by these activists is dangerous especially when freedom of religion is subjugated to state political machines and a state religion.
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Josh
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Josh »

Yes, it's the same Roger Hertzler. And what a dishonest article. It never mentions at all that teachings against jeans or for head coverings or against college come from the church, not from Roger himself.

And his daughter is being blatantly dishonest too. I know plenty of people from conferences like Roger Hertzler—anyone who wants to leave the Mennonites can. And there are PLENTY of other Christian groups waiting with open arms to help anyone transition out of a plain lifestyle. You'll notice Roger never hid any ID documentation etc.—there is just a false accusation in there that he might.

I happen to have grown up with a few people who are now part of HA and do the same kind of thing as the lead characters in this story. Most of them ended up that way because of growing up under Bill Gothard type of teachings in my experience.
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Josh
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Josh »

Incidentally, most people who leave Conservative Mennonite homes and churches have a giant sob story about it. Some of these stories are true, but most of them aren't.

"Didn't know how to shop for clothes." Come on. This person is just a grade-A manipulator at getting other people to give things to her for free and make them feel sorry for her. I know plenty of Mennonite girls from a variety of conferences, some quite strict, and all of them know how to "shop for clothes".

This is a variant of that old saw, "The Amish excommunicated me because I got born again." Or "The Amish excommunicated me because I got filled with the Spirit."
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RZehr
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by RZehr »

The narrative the article is peddling on this case is complete, unmitigated nonsense.
I was with Corrie at the motel on the morning of May 21 last year when she was "rescued" by Katlyn and taken to Seattle. Corrie said that Roger had paid for motel room.
Corrie and Daniel Silver both had accounts on MD.

Bottom line, she just didn't want to be a plain Anabaptist anymore, didn't believe in many Anabaptist distinctives, partially because of internet forums including probably MD.
It had nothing to do with any kind of abuse. And once she was 18, she left.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:The narrative the article is peddling on this case is complete, unmitigated nonsense.
I was with Corrie at the motel on the morning of May 21 last year when she was "rescued" by Katlyn and taken to Seattle. Corrie said that Roger had paid for motel room.

Corrie and Daniel Silver both had accounts on MD.

Bottom line, she just didn't want to be plain anymore. Had nothing to do with any kind of abuse. And once she was 18, she left.
There's a lot about abuse in the article, I did not see any claims that Corrie was abused. Here's what I think it says about her:
A young woman in Oregon was trying to escape her family, Green told her. She had been home-schooled and was eager to go to college. But the woman said her fundamentalist parents believed higher education wasn’t part of “God’s plan” for her. When she insisted, they took away her laptop and cellphone.
So she wanted to leave her family and go to college. This seems to agree with what you say.
At Patrick Henry, Silver said, he was dismayed at some of the stories he heard of students whose parents handed them books and expected them to teach themselves. He became politically active for a time, joining Generation Joshua and another organization for which he recruited teenagers to persuade senior citizens to vote for candidates who promised to repeal the Affordable Care Act.

But the stories of educational neglect in home-schooling families tugged at him, and he started occasionally helping young home-schooled women, driving them to appointments and referring them to Green for more-complex issues. He unsuccessfully lobbied Virginia legislators to pass the 2014 religious-exemption law study. And after meeting Hertzler through an online fan group of a Christian radio program, he arranged for her to live with his sister’s friend in Seattle when Hertzler told him she wanted to leave her family.

“People need to realize that a lot of pitfalls that happen in public schools can happen in home schools as well,” Silver says. “There needs to be more accountability.”
The article at least implies that she did not get much education when she was home-schooled. I have no idea if that's true or not, but it's the main allegation in the story. In particular, she says that her home-schooling did not prepare her to be able to live in the broader world:
Cornelia Hertzler, the woman Green and Hunt assisted, moved to Seattle and took a job in an aerospace factory. She returned to Oregon a few months later. Until recently she didn’t know what the SAT was or how to shop for clothes. Home schooling, she says, “prepared me very little” for life outside her fundamentalist home.

She says her parents eventually accepted her leaving. Her father, Roger Hertzler, says, “We are Christians and we want to see our children follow Christ. When we see her making choices that do not reflect that, we are concerned.”

Hertzler says her parents want her home. But she is living with friends and hopes to start community college in the fall. She wants to major in sociology.
Roger seems to equate her choices with choosing not to follow Christ.

You have knowledge of this situation, I do not. But I don't think this article charges Roger with abuse. It does charge other home-schooling parents with various kinds of abuse. I believe that does happen, I have just a little first-hand knowledge of that. I don't think most home-schooling parents are abusers, of course.

It also suggests that many home-schooling parents don't give their kids an adequate education for life in mainstream society. I have seen quite a bit of that. I think the article does sensationalize, but I also think there are valid issues here.

It's hard to know how to balance these concerns against concern for religious freedom and parent's rights.
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Josh
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:There's a lot about abuse in the article, I did not see any claims that Corrie was abused. Here's what I think it says about her:
Right - it talks a lot about abuse, but the only narrative they have where they talk to both sides has no abuse involved at all. That's a deceptive way to report.
The article at least implies that she did not get much education when she was home-schooled. I have no idea if that's true or not, but it's the main allegation in the story. In particular, she says that her home-schooling did not prepare her to be able to live in the broader world:
Cornelia Hertzler, the woman Green and Hunt assisted, moved to Seattle and took a job in an aerospace factory. She returned to Oregon a few months later. Until recently she didn’t know what the SAT was or how to shop for clothes. Home schooling, she says, “prepared me very little” for life outside her fundamentalist home.
Apparently, it prepared her well enough to get a job at a Boeing supplier:
Cornelia Hertzler, the woman Green and Hunt assisted, moved to Seattle and took a job in an aerospace factory. She returned to Oregon a few months later.
It also suggests that many home-schooling parents don't give their kids an adequate education for life in mainstream society. I have seen quite a bit of that. I think the article does sensationalize, but I also think there are valid issues here.
But that's got nothing to do with homeschooling. Lots of public schools and the parents who send their kids there also don't have them an adequate education.
It's hard to know how to balance these concerns against concern for religious freedom and parent's rights.
Is it? Do you think we'll be better off with more government oversight of conservative Mennonite families like RZehr's?

Where do you plan to get the staff to do this? When I was involved with children's services, the caseworker I worked with had 400 homes on her caseload. She spent about 5 minutes checking my home. And her heavy caseload had absolutely nothing to do with homeschooling. I wanted to ask her if we'd fully complied with a few things like outlet covers on electrical outlets and she just looked at me and said "If you didn't have them, I'd still pass you, because I cannot afford to lose any homes right now."

Do conservative Mennonite people generally show more signs of social dysfunction than society at large? What about homeschooled people? Is there any particular reason to target them out?

If that's a good idea, what about targeting Muslim people and madrassahs?

Perhaps the government should just command people what religion to be or not to be?
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Dan Z
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Dan Z »

Interesting article.

Full disclosure: For a number of reasons (some that were mentioned in the article) we have homeschooled our six children for over 25 years now (our last two are still at home).

We don't believe that everyone should do it (in fact, we have counseled some parents NOT to) and we have certainly been close to some unhealthy & even harmful homeschool situations. For that reason, we are in favor of some government accountability - like required standardized testing, portfolio review, and/or qualified education review of children (PA strikes a good balance here I believe). We are willing to be inconvenienced and give up some of our own rights for the greater good, spesifically for the sake of the little ones who might otherwise be invisible to society.

That being said, most of this article was not about abuse - but about conformity to dominant culture. It was written from the perspective of those who believe that assimilation into the dominant culture is the measure of a successful education. Unfortunately - much of the educational system is set up to do just that. This is exactly one of the main reasons we chose to homeschool - we DO NOT want our children assimilated into all of the values of contemporary American culture. Furthermore, in many ways, the measure of our educational success for us is whether we have raised children with the ability as adults to think independently from the zeitgeist.

On the one hand, I am fine with the state watching out for children who might be physically harmed or neglected - on the other hand however, I will strongly defend our right as people of faith to bring up our children in the principles that are dear to us. This is a religious liberty issue! Our educational goal is to prepare our children for citizenship in God's Kingdom - and that is the measure we want to be held to. Their ability to assimilate to Caesar's Kingdom - not so much.
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Josh
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Josh »

I would add that Jeff Bezos, who owns both the Washington Post and Amazon, is probably very concerned that people might not "know how to shop for clothes".

As pilgrims and strangers, I'm not sure how much we should care about fitting into the "mainstream". Is there some shortage of people who know how to shop that I'm not aware of? Do we as Americans not buy enough stuff? Do we need to educate people on how to buy even more stuff?

An article like this makes me even more sceptical of Bezos' continuous dishonest, biased reporting against political figures like Trump if he can't get basic facts in something like this straight.
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Josh
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Josh »

For that reason, we are in favor of some government accountability - like required standardized testing, portfolio review, and/or qualified education review of children (PA strikes a good balance here I believe). We are willing to be inconvenienced and give up some of our own rights for the greater good, spesifically for the sake of the little ones who might otherwise be invisible to society.
Should homeschooled families be held to a higher standard than public schools? I don't see why they should be. Until public schools quit turning out people who can't even read, I don't think more regulation of homeschooling, which does work, is the right answer.
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