Question re Roger Hertzler

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

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Josh wrote:Right - it talks a lot about abuse, but the only narrative they have where they talk to both sides has no abuse involved at all. That's a deceptive way to report.
I agree.
Josh wrote:
It's hard to know how to balance these concerns against concern for religious freedom and parent's rights.
Is it? Do you think we'll be better off with more government oversight of conservative Mennonite families like RZehr's?
I don't know what the current level is, or whether we need more or less or what we have. I think there are two basic issues. On the abuse side, I don't think religion guarantees that there is no physical or sexual abuse, not even for conservative Mennonites. You and I both know some of the stories that have emerged. So where there are plausible reports of abuse, I think they should be investigated the same way for religious people as for anyone else.

On the education side, I really would like to see all children get the equivalent of a high school education, and I think that is the intent of the law in the United States. Providing an equally good education to all children has never been a high enough priority for politicians, and the public school system is the most important place to work on this. But I have had enough contact with home schools to have concerns about the level of education in some homes.

From what I've seen of RZehr's posts here, I would be very surprised if there are problems in his environment. But I don't think the government can legitimately say, "oh, I trust you more than I trust other people because of your religion or because of what I know of your character". I have no knowledge at all of Roger Hertzler, and cannot weigh in on the level of education he gave to his daughter. No knowledge = no opinion.
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Josh
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

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Bootstrap wrote:On the education side, I really would like to see all children get the equivalent of a high school education, and I think that is the intent of the law in the United States. Providing an equally good education to all children has never been a high enough priority for politicians, and the public school system is the most important place to work on this. But I have had enough contact with home schools to have concerns about the level of education in some homes.
That would violate the consciences of everyone in my own church's conference, and more importantly, we do not have issues with churning out children who are uneducated, can't get jobs, can't work, can't run businesses. I also think the definition of "equally good" is something that a lot of people wouldn't agree on.

The established law of the land is that a given religious group can have strong convictions against education past 8th or 10th grade for the specific reason that doing so will cause assimilation into the mainstream culture and loss of religious conviction. That's what Wisconsin v. Yoder established.

Educational neglect and abuse are still illegal and are still investigated, but that's a world of difference between "educational neglect" and mandating 12th grade education. And from what I can see, public schools aren't doing a very good job of getting people educated to a realistic 12th grade level.

Mandating high school education means mandating that no young people can work and learn things like apprenticeships, learning the family business or trade or farm, and ultimately puts a lot of people on a track to go to college who won't really succeed there. I have a major disagreement with the mindset that everyone should work for a large, giant corporation and that we should make it even harder to operate a family business or farm or to employ your own children, or apprentice someone else in church's kids who are turning 16 or 17 and are ready to learn a trade. And from what I can see in higher education, many people enrol who don't end up succeeding, and just end up with a lot of debt.

Please don't dismantle our system until you can prove you can do things better.
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cmbl
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by cmbl »

I know of Conservative Mennonites who think of themselves as something distinct from Remnant/Charity/conservative homeschoolers/evangelicals.

I agree with that distinction.
The "world" does not make that distinction.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

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Josh wrote:The established law of the land is that a given religious group can have strong convictions against education past 8th or 10th grade for the specific reason that doing so will cause assimilation into the mainstream culture and loss of religious conviction. That's what Wisconsin v. Yoder established.

Educational neglect and abuse are still illegal and are still investigated, but that's a world of difference between "educational neglect" and mandating 12th grade education. And from what I can see, public schools aren't doing a very good job of getting people educated to a realistic 12th grade level.
OK. I did not mean to overturn Wisconsin v. Yoder, I had forgotten the required educational level was 8th or 10th grade.
Josh wrote:Mandating high school education means mandating that no young people can work and learn things like apprenticeships, learning the family business or trade or farm, and ultimately puts a lot of people on a track to go to college who won't really succeed there. I have a major disagreement with the mindset that everyone should work for a large, giant corporation and that we should make it even harder to operate a family business or farm or to employ your own children, or apprentice someone else in church's kids who are turning 16 or 17 and are ready to learn a trade. And from what I can see in higher education, many people enroll who don't end up succeeding and just end up with a lot of debt.
I don't think everyone needs to go to college, not at all. In fact, I would prefer that college to back to being what college used to be, and not a required step to get jobs that do not require college at all. Where I live, it's hard for people without at least a high school degree to get a job. Community college improves your income significantly. But this is all a different subject, if the legally required level is 8th or 10th grade, that's what counts legally.

On the other hand, the idea that we have high schools that do not provide a high school education really disturbs me. That's a problem that we can and should fix, but not one that politicians ever seem to care about enough.
Josh wrote:Please don't dismantle our system until you can prove you can do things better.
I'm not dismantling anything, and I'll learn as the conversation goes on. I was wrong about the legally required educational level.
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by lesterb »

RZehr could tell you for sure, but I think Roger is an educated person himself. As far as I know, he's a chartered accountant. I would guess that his daughter got an education superior to what she would have gotten in a public high school.

Some people are never happy unless they shove their nose into other people's business. They make it sound as if home schooling were just an excuse to abuse their children.

I've known various situations where people thought that they needed to "help" these poor stifled Mennonite children. They care little for the tears the parents have shed in trying to help their children grow up to serve the Lord. I wonder how most of them would respond if someone treated them that way?
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Ernie
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Ernie »

Dan Z wrote:Interesting article.

Full disclosure: For a number of reasons (some that were mentioned in the article) we have homeschooled our six children for over 25 years now (our last two are still at home).

We don't believe that everyone should do it (in fact, we have counseled some parents NOT to) and we have certainly been close to some unhealthy & even harmful homeschool situations. For that reason, we are in favor of some government accountability - like required standardized testing, portfolio review, and/or qualified education review of children (PA strikes a good balance here I believe). We are willing to be inconvenienced and give up some of our own rights for the greater good, spesifically for the sake of the little ones who might otherwise be invisible to society.

That being said, most of this article was not about abuse - but about conformity to dominant culture. It was written from the perspective of those who believe that assimilation into the dominant culture is the measure of a successful education. Unfortunately - much of the educational system is set up to do just that. This is exactly one of the main reasons we chose to homeschool - we DO NOT want our children assimilated into all of the values of contemporary American culture. Furthermore, in many ways, the measure of our educational success for us is whether we have raised children with the ability as adults to think independently from the zeitgeist.

On the one hand, I am fine with the state watching out for children who might be physically harmed or neglected - on the other hand however, I will strongly defend our right as people of faith to bring up our children in the principles that are dear to us. This is a religious liberty issue! Our educational goal is to prepare our children for citizenship in God's Kingdom - and that is the measure we want to be held to. Their ability to assimilate to Caesar's Kingdom - not so much.
Thanks Dan. I think you've articulated a significant piece of the pilgrim church worldview.

This article, particularly point number 5, also addresses the zeitgeist that is driving most Americans when it comes to education.
http://julieroys.com/five-reasons-chris ... mmon-core/
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:I would add that Jeff Bezos, who owns both the Washington Post and Amazon, is probably very concerned that people might not "know how to shop for clothes".

As pilgrims and strangers, I'm not sure how much we should care about fitting into the "mainstream". Is there some shortage of people who know how to shop that I'm not aware of? Do we as Americans not buy enough stuff? Do we need to educate people on how to buy even more stuff?

An article like this makes me even more sceptical of Bezos' continuous dishonest, biased reporting against political figures like Trump if he can't get basic facts in something like this straight.
Jeff Bezos and his paper have an agenda, not realizing that they are listening to 'the enemies of our soul' (for we wrestle not against flesh and blood......). I was struck with some anger when I read the article- probably since I have been a supporter of Anabaptism since learning about it, I admittedly would understand it more than Jeff Bezos and others who would view conservative Anabaptists & Christians who homeschool as 'depriving' their children. He wouldn't understand that sending them to public school is ALSO depriving them in many respects- he simply wouldn't get this. The carnal man cannot understand the spiritual.

That being said- IF a conservative Christian's children want the world- well, like the prodigal son- they have their own choice. I feel saddened that these young ladies did not appreciate what was poured into them and the protection FROM the world that they seem to be chasing after. One reason I no longer supported MAP Ministry was that it gained sympathizers and those sympathizers thought they were doing these 'poor Amish' that leave a favor by introducing them to the world of fashion, education, and television-

As far as being able to buy clothes- from a females perspective- if you have grown up in a conservative Anabaptist setting, it COULD be 'somewhat' challenging to go clothes shopping for the first time. I remember moving from Southern California (very worldly) to Northwest Ohio (more conservative farmland area) and realizing my clothes were too worldly even for that. Having to learn to shop and ALSO being confused about what kind of 'winter coat' would be suitable for my first winter season- I asked people around me in the store for advice on that. The coat dept was huge! So many kinds. However I think this article has a motive- to make conservative Christians look abusive, and to attack them, and to turn people against them. It seems obvious to me. The anger from the liberals over President Trumps choice of head of the dept of education I am SURE has something to do with this article. Betsy DeVos is a strong supporter of charter schools and homeschooling- and liberals are fiercely angry at the thought of her being over the Dept of Education- so this article doesn't surprise me at all.
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

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A few thoughts in response to a few thoughts:

1) Generally I wouldn't support additional state control of home-schooling.

2) I do think if an 18 year old girl wishes to go to college...the best play for the parents would be to support her in going to college. (Not support necessarily financially, just support the desire for further learning.) I am wary of too strong a teaching..."the woman's place is in the home raising kids."

3) Common Core isn't a bogey man. There was a real need for much of what CCSS was going for. Incidentally, more extended nonfiction writing based in evidentiary argument. More of a conceptual understanding of Mathematics, etc. (I have written to this all before and won't bother detailing in depth again).

4) I also am uncomfortable with thinking of education as "indoctrination" or teaching somebody "into the absolute truth." In my view we teach people the skills they need to learn and think. Whether we like it or not, at the end of the day they will make up their own minds regarding following Jesus or doing what they think is best anyway. (See the example of Cornelia H in this story). Having said that we model (hopefully) kingdom living, and challenge people to become followers of Jesus and to repent. Some falls on soft ground, some on hard ground, some on stony ground, etc. But nonetheless, no matter what the ground, just like we teach all our kids to walk and to speak English regardless of if they join the Kingdom of God, so they all need to be taught to read and write and do math. Frogs hop and humans learn. But, I don't think you can educate somebody into Christianity or absolute truth.

5) Lastly, there are tons of really great public schools from an educational standpoint. And almost without fail they work with students that have more challenges than we do. And they don't just "expel them." And we should be careful judging their work on a few districts just like we don't want our Home-schools or Christian schools judged on just a few examples. After all, our public schools put a man on the moon (with a bit of help from German Rocket Scientists =).
Last edited by joshuabgood on Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

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Dan Z wrote:That being said, most of this article was not about abuse - but about conformity to dominant culture. It was written from the perspective of those who believe that assimilation into the dominant culture is the measure of a successful education. Unfortunately - much of the educational system is set up to do just that. This is exactly one of the main reasons we chose to homeschool - we DO NOT want our children assimilated into all of the values of contemporary American culture. Furthermore, in many ways, the measure of our educational success for us is whether we have raised children with the ability as adults to think independently from the zeitgeist.

On the one hand, I am fine with the state watching out for children who might be physically harmed or neglected - on the other hand however, I will strongly defend our right as people of faith to bring up our children in the principles that are dear to us. This is a religious liberty issue! Our educational goal is to prepare our children for citizenship in God's Kingdom - and that is the measure we want to be held to. Their ability to assimilate to Caesar's Kingdom - not so much.
Excellent. I like what you say here.

The Wisconsin v. Yoder question is relevant here, though. If the State has an interest in making sure children get an education, at what point are they exceeding their proper authority?

For what it's worth, I have a couple of college degrees, and I still would have no idea how to buy women's clothing in a department store. I'm not sure how anyone masters that skill, but I do notice that women seem to return a lot of what they buy. Would any kind of formal education help?
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Re: Question re Roger Hertzler

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Bootstrap wrote:
Dan Z wrote:That being said, most of this article was not about abuse - but about conformity to dominant culture. It was written from the perspective of those who believe that assimilation into the dominant culture is the measure of a successful education. Unfortunately - much of the educational system is set up to do just that. This is exactly one of the main reasons we chose to homeschool - we DO NOT want our children assimilated into all of the values of contemporary American culture. Furthermore, in many ways, the measure of our educational success for us is whether we have raised children with the ability as adults to think independently from the zeitgeist.

On the one hand, I am fine with the state watching out for children who might be physically harmed or neglected - on the other hand however, I will strongly defend our right as people of faith to bring up our children in the principles that are dear to us. This is a religious liberty issue! Our educational goal is to prepare our children for citizenship in God's Kingdom - and that is the measure we want to be held to. Their ability to assimilate to Caesar's Kingdom - not so much.
Excellent. I like what you say here.

The Wisconsin v. Yoder question is relevant here, though. If the State has an interest in making sure children get an education, at what point are they exceeding their proper authority?

For what it's worth, I have a couple of college degrees, and I still would have no idea how to buy women's clothing in a department store. I'm not sure how anyone masters that skill, but I do notice that women seem to return a lot of what they buy. Would any kind of formal education help?
Just a quick reply to the comment about women returning what they buy- it is NOT because they need an education on how to shop. Women tend to shop impulsively, some women shop for 'fulfillment' (false fulfillment) some because of sales, some in a hurry and don't try things on AT THE STORE but prefer to bring them home and then make decisions. For whatever it's worth, having this experience being 59 and living among the worldly culture, it is not because they need an education to shop- it's more about having way too many options to chose from- for that matter- going to the grocery store is the same way- the larger stores offer way more choices in tomato sauce then one really needs!

Sure the first few times someone that has learned to be content with food and clothes beyond what is necessary is thrown into the world of dept stores- it can probably be confusing- lust of the eyes can make it so- and there are many departments within the women's world to buy clothes but spending a day or so even on your own, or getting help from the sales clerk would quickly satisfy that- a department store is indicative of the materialistic world we live in, that conservative Christians have tried to abstain from.
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