Voting without warring

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Martin
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Martin »

A good book on how Mennonite beliefs changed in regards to voting and the separation of church and state is "Mennonites, Amish, and the American Civil War" by James O. Lehman.
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by MaxPC »

Ernie wrote:
RZehr wrote:Principle vs. Application
I believe there is clear teaching in the Bible regarding the principle of separation of the two kingdoms. Not voting is a good application of this principle. But it is not the principle thing. Just as modesty is a biblical principle, and long pants and long sleeve shirt might be the application. Or bearing one anothers burdens is a principle, and not having insurance is an application of that principle.
When I confuse the application for the principle, I may end up grasping at biblical straws in order to defend an my exact application.
So would you say that not going to war is an application of "resist not evil"? And not hitting and enemy with a stick would be an application of "resist not evil"? (The Bible doesn't say we may not hit our enemies with a stick.)

Can't there be direct applications, indirect applications, and semi-direct applications?
Jesus taught to specific situations but He also extrapolated the teaching to principles of discipleship, eg Matthew 5:38-40.

Voting does embroil one with manipulative politics as has already been established and discussed. Our identity should be Christ, not a political system, party, or candidate.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Martin wrote:A good book on how Mennonite beliefs changed in regards to voting and the separation of church and state is "Mennonites, Amish, and the American Civil War" by James O. Lehman.
Could you summarize it?
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Martin
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Martin »

Bootstrap wrote:
Martin wrote:A good book on how Mennonite beliefs changed in regards to voting and the separation of church and state is "Mennonites, Amish, and the American Civil War" by James O. Lehman.
Could you summarize it?
Quoting the from the book on page 13, "This books details the story of negotiating nonresistant citizenship. The political implications were complex-whether in conversation with the state or in relations with neighbors or fellow church members. The scale and scope of the Civil War only increased the intensity of such matters, reaffirming convictions while often reformulating the old approaches."

Prior to the Civil War the Old Mennonites (Franconia, Lancaster, Washington-Franklin, and Virginia) voted and served in civic roles such as tax collectors and township trustees. One example is Joseph Snively Jr., (1786-1872), a Franklin County, PA delegate to the State Constitutional Convention in 1837. However, the Reformed Mennonite founder John Herr, along with a fellow Reformed Mennonite physician Daniel Musser objected to serving in a political role. Musser had this say in regards to Mennonites who voted for Governor Curtin and then refused his call to arms, "Those who cast their suffrage for the President placed him in office and put the sword into his hands; and I do not see how anyone can contend that it is sin for him to use it, and not for them to give him power to do so."

I will conclude with a sentence from the book that summarized Musser's convictions. "In short, the truly converted nonresistant Christian was apolitical, condemning neither Republican nor Democrat, judging neither North or South, but humbly submitting to God's sovereign will and living faithfully in a parallel universe that was the kingdom of God."
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Dan Z
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Dan Z »

Thanks Martin for the summary of the Lehman book.

I especially appreciated the two quotes you gave:
"Those who cast their suffrage for the President placed him in office and put the sword into his hands; and I do not see how anyone can contend that it is sin for him to use it, and not for them to give him power to do so."
We've talked a lot about why one might conscientiously abstain from voting - but this, I believe, is the most compelling reason for me. How can I, as a non-resistant follower of Christ, directly chose a person who wields the sword for society (President, Governor, Sheriff, Judge, etc.)?
"In short, the truly converted nonresistant Christian was apolitical, condemning neither Republican nor Democrat, judging neither North or South, but humbly submitting to God's sovereign will and living faithfully in a parallel universe that was the kingdom of God."
I can appreciate this perspective to a point - especially in the way it does not choose political sides.

This is "the quiet in the land" argument - a clear two-kingdom perspective...and I'm cool with it provided those who are the quiet in the land do not turn a blind eye to the spiritual and physical suffering and injustice around them.

Unfortunately, what has happened too often among our people is that this type of attitude has historically been used to justify separation (and indifference) to the point where we live comfortable lives of oblivion - maintaining our separate lifestyles and communities, and effectively neglecting the real work of Jesus in regard to "the least of these." There is a spiritual fatalism within some streams of Anabaptism that piously claims the sovereignty of God in all circumstances - where our light is kept warm and snug under a bushel while all hell breaks loose around us. Where is our witness in that? Might it be that our sovereign God would choose to do His work through his followers?
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mike
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by mike »

Dan Z wrote:I can appreciate this perspective to a point - especially in the way it does not choose political sides.

This is "the quiet in the land" argument - a clear two-kingdom perspective...and I'm cool with it provided those who are the quiet in the land do not turn a blind eye to the spiritual and physical suffering and injustice around them.

Unfortunately, what has happened too often among our people is that this type of attitude has historically been used to justify separation (and indifference) to the point where we live comfortable lives of oblivion - maintaining our separate lifestyles and communities, and effectively neglecting the real work of Jesus in regard to "the least of these." There is a spiritual fatalism within some streams of Anabaptism that piously claims the sovereignty of God in all circumstances - where our light is kept warm and snug under a bushel while all hell breaks loose around us. Where is our witness in that? Might it be that our sovereign God would choose to do His work through his followers?
The argument for Christians being apolitical does not at all require disregard for and inaction on behalf of the needy. In fact, it may free us to do more, not encumbered by the trappings of political entanglement. Nothing stands in the way of our going into prisons, donating to food banks, distributing to charity, volunteering for disaster relief and humanitarian aid missions, preaching the good news, helping our neighbors, visiting the sick and elderly, etc, etc. Let's do it, folks.
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Sudsy »

Dan Z wrote:Unfortunately, what has happened too often among our people is that this type of attitude has historically been used to justify separation (and indifference) to the point where we live comfortable lives of oblivion - maintaining our separate lifestyles and communities, and effectively neglecting the real work of Jesus in regard to "the least of these." There is a spiritual fatalism within some streams of Anabaptism that piously claims the sovereignty of God in all circumstances - where our light is kept warm and snug under a bushel while all hell breaks loose around us. Where is our witness in that? Might it be that our sovereign God would choose to do His work through his followers?
Amen, and this 'spiritual fatalism' is very dominant in non-Anabaptist groups also. One of God's sovereign acts is to use us as means in building His Kingdom. As the early church demonstrated, being a 'quiet in the land' (if that means withholding words that may be taken as offensive and/or foolishness or just keeping the peace) is not what Christianity was meant to be about. Rather we are in a war with principlaties and powers in the spirit realm that we are to fight in the natural realm in a very radical way - the way of love.

This takes engagement with those outside the church just as Jesus demonstrated. I believe I can do this without knowing much at all about what goes on in earthly politics. We need more guidance in how we steer conversations with the unsaved about God's Kingdom and trully be ambassadors of His Kingdom. Seems much of the evangelistic church today is too concerned about 'fitting in' and in so doing really don't get around to talking about God's Kingdom. Something I need to keep working on.

Now Paul said he became what was necessary to share the Gospel but it was for the purpose that some be saved. Does my voting or not have this purpose ? For me, regarding Kingdom furtherance, it doesn't appear to make any difference.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:Thanks Martin for the summary of the Lehman book.
Indeed.
Dan Z wrote: especially appreciated the two quotes you gave:
"Those who cast their suffrage for the President placed him in office and put the sword into his hands; and I do not see how anyone can contend that it is sin for him to use it, and not for them to give him power to do so."
We've talked a lot about why one might conscientiously abstain from voting - but this, I believe, is the most compelling reason for me. How can I, as a non-resistant follower of Christ, directly chose a person who wields the sword for society (President, Governor, Sheriff, Judge, etc.)?
I don't think I can. I can offer one opinion. Taken together with other people's opinions, someone gets elected. In my experience, it is not always the person I vote for.

There will be a Caesar whether I vote or not. To me, this is not unlike other ways that we contribute our voice to the ethics of the community we live in. Sometimes I can improve the chances of peace by voting for a wise leader who is less likely to bring us to war.

I'm more concerned about the dangers of (1) partisanship, or (2) believing that the political world is really "where it's at", and ignoring the urgency of working for the Kingdom. To me, joining a political party, making some political wing a big part of your identity, or campaigning are much more dangerous than voting.
Dan Z wrote:
"In short, the truly converted nonresistant Christian was apolitical, condemning neither Republican nor Democrat, judging neither North or South, but humbly submitting to God's sovereign will and living faithfully in a parallel universe that was the kingdom of God."
I can appreciate this perspective to a point - especially in the way it does not choose political sides.

This is "the quiet in the land" argument - a clear two-kingdom perspective...and I'm cool with it provided those who are the quiet in the land do not turn a blind eye to the spiritual and physical suffering and injustice around them.
This argument is most compelling when made by people who are "quiet in the land". It's much less convincing when made by people who constantly inflict their political opinions on others, who do in fact condemn and judge. And I do recognize that some of the people who are most emphatic about not voting do not participate in those threads. To me, it makes their witness much more consistent.
Dan Z wrote:Unfortunately, what has happened too often among our people is that this type of attitude has historically been used to justify separation (and indifference) to the point where we live comfortable lives of oblivion - maintaining our separate lifestyles and communities, and effectively neglecting the real work of Jesus in regard to "the least of these." There is a spiritual fatalism within some streams of Anabaptism that piously claims the sovereignty of God in all circumstances - where our light is kept warm and snug under a bushel while all hell breaks loose around us. Where is our witness in that? Might it be that our sovereign God would choose to do His work through his followers?
I agree.

Sometimes it feels like we can carefully remove every distraction that would keep us from fully living out the Kingdom of God, but never quite get around to fully living out the Kingdom of God ...
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mike
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by mike »

Bootstrap wrote:I'm more concerned about the dangers of (1) partisanship
Is it possible to vote without being partisan?
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Josh
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Josh »

mike wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I'm more concerned about the dangers of (1) partisanship
Is it possible to vote without being partisan?
Possibly. Some elections are virtually non-partisan, like local elections in some places for some kinds of judges.
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