Voting without warring

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
MaxPC
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by MaxPC »

JimFoxvog wrote: How about "I kind of like the custom I grew up with, where we kept our votes secret"? End of response.
:clap: :up:
It also helps to avoid announcing for whom one has chosen to vote on a bunch of internet forums in an effort to drum up more votes for a favored candidate.

Additionally those who put God first and choose to swim upstream by not voting at all instead of going with the flow of secular media pressures have found their true purpose: discipleship to Christ.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by KingdomBuilder »

MaxPC wrote:Additionally those who put God first and choose to swim upstream by not voting at all instead of going with the flow of secular media pressures have found their true purpose: discipleship to Christ.
Plenty of those who do not vote are lacking much, just as plenty who do vote are engaged in their "true purpose"

not voting isn't the tried-and-true fruit of salvation. Be careful with such jumps.
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temporal1
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by temporal1 »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Additionally those who put God first and choose to swim upstream by not voting at all instead of going with the flow of secular media pressures have found their true purpose: discipleship to Christ.
Plenty of those who do not vote are lacking much, just as plenty who do vote are engaged in their "true purpose"

not voting isn't the tried-and-true fruit of salvation. Be careful with such jumps.
did you miss the first part of his reference? :?

certainly, most people do not vote. most without regard to faith beliefs.
the difference is stark, but, on surface, the net results are the same.

i agree with JimFv, in former times, the secret ballot was of high importance!
frankly, the way votes are now tracked, people put in categories of voters, by race, sex, age, geographical location, etc., what is left of the secret ballot?!

people now look at each other and jump to conclusions about how they voted, without ever asking.

i would like to see all-that come to a halt.
it certainly erodes the significance, and tempts awful-awful divisions.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:did you miss the first part of his reference? :?
I didn't. Shall I respond?
MaxPC wrote:
JimFoxvog wrote:How about "I kind of like the custom I grew up with, where we kept our votes secret"? End of response.
It also helps to avoid announcing for whom one has chosen to vote on a bunch of internet forums in an effort to drum up more votes for a favored candidate.
Obviously.

Max, I think your post is a pretty good example of "warring without voting", lobbing accusations instead of examining the question as it applies to you and me. And I think this is also a false accusation - I'm only posting on two forums, this is one of them, and if you look, you simply won't find me announcing that I intend to vote for any particular candidate or urging people to do so. Yet you imply that I did. I did express a lot of concerns about Trump. I did respond to someone who asked me point-blank who I voted for here on MN, I hadn't found a graceful way to evade the question.

And that's pretty much the problem I'm talking about. From my perspective, there are a lot of Christians who are all in for a particular political world view, and if you discuss any topic that touches on that world view, it's hard to have a discussion about facts. But it's hard to simply not talk about so much of what is going on around us. I used to post on MennoNerds, and faced the same issue from the political left.
MaxPC wrote:Additionally those who put God first and choose to swim upstream by not voting at all instead of going with the flow of secular media pressures have found their true purpose: discipleship to Christ.
I see both voters and non-voters who are taking their discipleship to Christ seriously. And when we really focus on that, there's no need for political warring over the hot button political issues. In this thread, I do hope each of us can focus on the log in our own eye. The thread won't be useful unless it's a safe place for self-examination.
temporal wrote:i agree with JimFv, in former times, the secret ballot was of high importance!
frankly, the way votes are now tracked, people put in categories of voters, by race, sex, age, geographical location, etc., what is left of the secret ballot?!

people now look at each other and jump to conclusions about how they voted, without ever asking.

i would like to see all-that come to a halt.
it certainly erodes the significance, and tempts awful-awful divisions.
I agree.

I agree.

So it sounds like telling people would accept it if I responded as Jim suggests?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Max, I wonder if you could reflect on your own approach to voting and how that relates to people in your own church.

The Catholic Catechism (on the vatican.va site) says that it is morally obligatory to exercise the right to vote. You have said that you are 100% loyal to the teachings of the Catholic Church, do you follow this or not? If you disagree with the Catechism, do you wrestle with being part of a church that teaches this? Do you see yourself as part of a protest movement within the Catholic Church that is trying to change these teachings? Are you calling on Catholics to "swim upstream" and become more like plain Mennonites, even in ways that contradict the Catechism?

I'm not asking this as an attack, but this thread is very much about how each of us approaches these things. If voting is incompatible with your faith, how do you approach this in your church?
2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:

Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
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MaxPC
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by MaxPC »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Additionally those who put God first and choose to swim upstream by not voting at all instead of going with the flow of secular media pressures have found their true purpose: discipleship to Christ.
Plenty of those who do not vote are lacking much, just as plenty who do vote are engaged in their "true purpose"

not voting isn't the tried-and-true fruit of salvation. Be careful with such jumps.
KB, rare exceptions do exist but my experience of those who do resist the larger pressures of secular society through Biblical separation have a better awareness of smaller pressures.

Politics are pervasive and one of the largest pressures Christians encounter. Politics consume large amounts of time trying to filter truth from fiction if one is to even vote responsibly.

Like you, in my youth, I believed voting was possible and still remain separate. Mass media has taken over every aspect of life making that separation difficult. Airports, doctors' offices, restaurants and even checkout lines have televisions tuned to CNN or some other cable news. The pervasive message that political partisanship is important runs counter to the Biblical teachings of remaining separate.

You seem to be a young man earnestly seeking God and it gladdens my heart to see young people who do as you do. I encourage you to try turning off all of the mass media in tv, radio, etc for a year to see if it's easier to find your discipleship. I think you'll find an interesting revelation if you do. God bless you.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Max, please participate in this thread or leave it. Please do not sabotage it.
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Ernie
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Ernie »

Bootstrap wrote:I don't think voting is the same as joining a political party or declaring loyalty to a political party, I think it is deciding which of the candidates is best for a particular job, picking one of the choices the parties give us. To me, this is part of public engagement, like picking up the trash on the road or in a park, or attending parent's meetings at school. And I think of public engagement as a good thing, building a sense of community and being in this together.
This position makes several assumptions in my mind. Reword them if you don't agree.

1. This position assumes that voting (and researching candidates of popular parties who have a chance at winning) is a worthwhile and effective use of time.
2. It assumes that this use of time is one of the better ways to use ones time.
3. It assumes that conventional norms of democratic society are good norms.
4. It assumes that a person can have "dual citizenship" as Martin Luther proposed, rather than an "ambassador only" position, as was commonly understood by the early Anabaptists.


Would you say that Christians have a "responsibility", as the article below states or an "opportunity"?
Either way, I don't think that early Anabaptists would have seen either to be a tool of the Kingdom of God.

http://byfaithonline.com/politics-why-c ... nvolved-2/
The late theologian Carl Henry believed that Christians, as citizens, have a duty “to work through civil authority for the advancement of justice and human good.” It’s a pervasive responsibility. After all, politics determines whether we’re at war or peace. It affects the nation’s job supply, wealth creation and distribution, and property rights. It determines our freedom to speak, write, and worship. Even the circumstances of family life, says writer J. Philip Wogaman, often depend on government policy, including the quality and content of public education.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Useful questions, Ernie - I am off to teach Sunday School, and will probably spend the rest of the day offline, so I'll respond on Monday.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by KingdomBuilder »

[quote="MaxPC"]Like you, in my youth, I believed voting was possible and still remain separate....

You seem to be a young man earnestly seeking God and it gladdens my heart to see young people who do as you do. I encourage you to try turning off all of the mass media in tv, radio, etc for a year to see if it's easier to find your discipleship. I think you'll find an interesting revelation if you do. God bless you.[/quote]

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I do not vote, nor do I believe in voting; nor do I advocate it.
I appreciate the compliments and encouragement. I don't watch any TV, listen to no radio, read no magazines, and don't dabble in the majority of social media (I only follow about 20 family members on FB)... haven't for quite a a long time.
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