Voting without warring

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:The problem is because with heavenly citizenship, I also also hold American citizenship.
Isn't the right to vote is granted by the host country? If Mexico gave US citizens the right to vote, then I expect the US ambassador would vote in Mexican elections.

The uniqueness of heavenly citizenship, is that the earthly countries allow us to vote.

I guess I'm propositioning that our non-voting position goes beyond the ambassador reason. I think a big part of our noninvolvement is simply experience. We have learned by trial and error that we are better off not voting. It is a cleaner, easier way. We don't say voting is sin. We don't have to have a tight theological reason to refrain.
This makes a lot of sense.

To me, it makes less sense if the same people who are not voting do take sides on the election, putting lots of energy into those discussions. Those kinds of debates take up a lot more time and energy than voting. And I notice that you and Ernie avoid those debates.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Voting just demonstrates to me once again that most of us who believe we are being led by the Holy Spirit are not, in fact, being led by the Holy Spirit. If we were then all Christians lead by the Holy Spirit would vote for the same candidates. So if we can't honestly say the Holy Spirit can be depended on as a guide for voting, then we have to admit that it's really just our own personal political inclinations leading us to exercise our franchise along partisan, not spiritual lines.

The very act of voting divides the church.
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RZehr
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by RZehr »

Okay, but why do Christians need to take the positions that their vote is a result of the Holy Spirits leading?
Sometimes I allow my children to decide a inconsequential decision by majority. Many times my coworkers decide where to have lunch by consensus or by majority. If I vote for eating lunch at a certain place, I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit is directing me there and that others are wrong. Likewise (and closer home), if I vote for someone to be a Sunday School teacher, I'm not saying that others are voting against the Holy Spirit.

So, I can understand (in theory) how someone can vote casually. But I will admit and agree that it doesn't appear to work out like this in real life most of the time.
It feels odd to be arguing from this side of this issue. I do promote nonvoting. I strongly believe it is a much cleaner position, and more consistent with what I believe.

Principle vs. Application
I believe there is clear teaching in the Bible regarding the principle of separation of the two kingdoms. Not voting is a good application of this principle. But it is not the principle thing. Just as modesty is a biblical principle, and long pants and long sleeve shirt might be the application. Or bearing one anothers burdens is a principle, and not having insurance is an application of that principle.
When I confuse the application for the principle, I may end up grasping at biblical straws in order to defend an my exact application.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Wayne in Maine wrote:The very act of voting divides the church.
The very act of discussing whether or not to vote divides the church. Some people who have sought the Spirit's guidance on this vote, some do not, and sometimes people even have a hard time accepting a brother who sees it the other way.

The very act of discussing almost any political issue divides the church, and political issues seem to include just about everything these days. We live in a politically divided country, and Christians seem very willing to attack each other's integrity or intelligence or even Christian commitment over questions like global warming. I know people who are strongly against voting, but vigorously attack Christians who disagree with their opinions on Facebook.

The very act of insisting on an Anabaptist Two Kingdom theology divides the church. The very act of calling ourselves Mennonites or Anabaptists and distinguishing ourselves from other Christians divides the church.

I think we have to admit that Spirit-led Christians don't always agree on all matters of faith and practice. Maybe we need to focus more on Jesus and less on our disagreements. Maybe we need to practice discipleship in the areas where we agree. Maybe we need to read more about what the New Testament says about Jews and Greeks. We can be just as divided as we decide to be, and we can easily blame it on the other guy.

I have a hard time believing that the act of voting is the most divisive issue.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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temporal1
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by temporal1 »

RZehr wrote:Okay, but why do Christians need to take the positions that their vote is a result of the Holy Spirits leading?
Sometimes I allow my children to decide a inconsequential decision by majority. Many times my coworkers decide where to have lunch by consensus or by majority. If I vote for eating lunch at a certain place, I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit is directing me there and that others are wrong. Likewise (and closer home), if I vote for someone to be a Sunday School teacher, I'm not saying that others are voting against the Holy Spirit.

So, I can understand (in theory) how someone can vote casually. But I will admit and agree that it doesn't appear to work out like this in real life most of the time.
It feels odd to be arguing from this side of this issue. I do promote nonvoting. I strongly believe it is a much cleaner position, and more consistent with what I believe.

Principle vs. Application
I believe there is clear teaching in the Bible regarding the principle of separation of the two kingdoms. Not voting is a good application of this principle. But it is not the principle thing. Just as modesty is a biblical principle, and long pants and long sleeve shirt might be the application. Or bearing one anothers burdens is a principle, and not having insurance is an application of that principle.
When I confuse the application for the principle, I may end up grasping at biblical straws in order to defend an my exact application.
(for me) .. i sense a difference between voting as a tool for earthly life, versus, the terrible fail of turning voting/politics into a false god. it can become an addiction/obsession, which is not a tool. a few forum members have described formerly being addicted to politics! - the way they control this is to reject all of it, as alcoholics avoid all alcohol. (not all reject voting due to problems of addiction. i do not intend to imply that!)

many have no problem with alcohol. God created us - differently.

i'm not sure i know anyone who would drink in front of another they knew was an alcoholic, or would offer alcohol to an alcoholic - this is understood! scriptures refer to stumbling blocks.

one example of local voting:
decisions about whether to increase local taxes to improve roads, bridges.
(this example reminds me of how you allow your children some occasional votes on family matters.)
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Ernie
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Ernie »

RZehr wrote:Principle vs. Application
I believe there is clear teaching in the Bible regarding the principle of separation of the two kingdoms. Not voting is a good application of this principle. But it is not the principle thing. Just as modesty is a biblical principle, and long pants and long sleeve shirt might be the application. Or bearing one anothers burdens is a principle, and not having insurance is an application of that principle.
When I confuse the application for the principle, I may end up grasping at biblical straws in order to defend an my exact application.
So would you say that not going to war is an application of "resist not evil"? And not hitting and enemy with a stick would be an application of "resist not evil"? (The Bible doesn't say we may not hit our enemies with a stick.)

Can't there be direct applications, indirect applications, and semi-direct applications?
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Ernie
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Ernie »

Bootstrap wrote:I think we have to admit that Spirit-led Christians don't always agree on all matters of faith and practice. Maybe we need to focus more on Jesus and less on our disagreements.
You would be welcome to lead the way.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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ohio jones
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by ohio jones »

Ernie wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I think we have to admit that Spirit-led Christians don't always agree on all matters of faith and practice. Maybe we need to focus more on Jesus and less on our disagreements.
You would be welcome to lead the way.
But then we would be Bootstrap-led instead of Spirit-led.

That brings up the subject of how human leadership interacts with being led directly by God (I think both are necessary, though maybe in another thread).
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RZehr
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by RZehr »

Ernie wrote:
RZehr wrote:Principle vs. Application
I believe there is clear teaching in the Bible regarding the principle of separation of the two kingdoms. Not voting is a good application of this principle. But it is not the principle thing. Just as modesty is a biblical principle, and long pants and long sleeve shirt might be the application. Or bearing one anothers burdens is a principle, and not having insurance is an application of that principle.
When I confuse the application for the principle, I may end up grasping at biblical straws in order to defend an my exact application.
So would you say that not going to war is an application of "resist not evil"? And not hitting and enemy with a stick would be an application of "resist not evil"? (The Bible doesn't say we may not hit our enemies with a stick.)

Can't there be direct applications, indirect applications, and semi-direct applications?
I think not going to war is both an application of "resist not evil" and a failure to "love your enemies". I also believe that voting is a much harder issue to checkmate from the basis of scripture than war is.

I'm not sure I understand completely what you have in mind with direct, indirect, and semi-direct applications. I do think there is a difference between general principles found in the Bible and direct commands given in the Bible.
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Josh
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Josh »

JimFoxvog wrote:Just a little comment on this:
Bootstrap wrote:I haven't quite figured out how to tell people that it's really none of their business who I voted for without seeming rude myself.
How about "I kind of like the custom I grew up with, where we kept our votes secret"? End of response.
An element of Anabaptist thinking is that we don't do things as isolated individuals in private - instead, we work as a community, and the rest of our community expects to be allowed to know what we are doing and offer input on that. Based on that, I would argue that the idea of secretly voting isn't really compatible with the overall idea of Anabaptist community.
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