Voting without warring

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Wade
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Wade »

Philippians 3:20a ...our citizenship is in heaven...
Hebrews 11:13b-16 ...and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
1 Peter 2:9-11a ...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles...
As far as I understand it when we move to another country and take on a new citizenship (not dual citizenship - "Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord,") then we relinquish our "rights," from our former country.

If we agree with scripture that our citizenship is in heaven and we are in fact pilgrims, strangers, sojourners, and exiles then where do we have any "right" to vote?
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RZehr
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by RZehr »

Wade wrote:
Philippians 3:20a ...our citizenship is in heaven...
Hebrews 11:13b-16 ...and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
1 Peter 2:9-11a ...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles...
As far as I understand it when we move to another country and take on a new citizenship (not dual citizenship - "Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord,") then we relinquish our "rights," from our former country.

If we agree with scripture that our citizenship is in heaven and we are in fact pilgrims, strangers, sojourners, and exiles then where do we have any "right" to vote?
The problem is because with heavenly citizenship, I also also hold American citizenship.
Isn't the right to vote is granted by the host country? If Mexico gave US citizens the right to vote, then I expect the US ambassador would vote in Mexican elections.
The uniqueness of heavenly citizenship, is that the earthly countries allow us to vote.
I guess I'm propositioning that our non-voting position goes beyond the ambassador reason. I think a big part of our noninvolvement is simply experience. We have learned by trial and error that we are better off not voting. It is a cleaner, easier way. We don't say voting is sin. We don't have to have a tight theological reason to refrain.
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Wade
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Wade »

Since, "...there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." How much communion should we have in partaking of voting?

And if our vote is different than who gets into authority; did we vote against God's will?

Where do we draw the line with partaking in voting for someone who is going to use the sword when, "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”?

No need to jump to conclusions about sin or not please just trying to ask honest questions I have thought about, but am not trying to make a statement with...
Last edited by Wade on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RZehr
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by RZehr »

Wade wrote:Since, "...there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." How much communion should we have in partaking of voting?

And if our vote is different than who gets into authority; did we vote against God's will?

Where do we draw the line with partaking in voting for someone who is going to use the sword when, "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”?
I think these are all really good points, and reasons not to vote. I don't promote voting. But I can't really say it is sin, even while I can say that it is less than ideal.

Just as I don't like it when some start watering down and relabeling sin as weaknesses or whatever, I also don't want to overreach in the other direction and call something sin, when it may not be.
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Ernie
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Ernie »

RZehr wrote: The problem is because with heavenly citizenship, I also also hold American citizenship.
Isn't the right to vote is granted by the host country? If Mexico gave US citizens the right to vote, then I expect the US ambassador would vote in Mexican elections.
The uniqueness of heavenly citizenship, is that the earthly countries allow us to vote.
I guess I'm propositioning that our non-voting position goes beyond the ambassador reason. I think a big part of our noninvolvement is simply experience. We have learned by trial and error that we are better off not voting. It is a cleaner, easier way. We don't say voting is sin. We don't have to have a tight theological reason to refrain.
No, I wouldn't say voting is sin. Yet I would say it is not wise or excellent or good. And so whenever someone concludes that something is unwise and keeps on doing it then it becomes sin.

In conservative Anabaptist settings we make more of these types of decisions corporately rather than individually.

Every country has its own expectations. Some countries allow dual citizenship. Others do not.
The US allows dual citizenship with other countries as well as with the Kingdom of Heaven. For this privilege I am very grateful. Most people who have been part of the pilgrim church through the centuries have not had this privilege.
When I read the NT, I understand Jesus to say that any citizenship in an earthy nation should not distract us from our heavenly citizenship. The apostles seemed to understand this also when they said things like,
"No man who goes to war entangles himself with the cares of this life."
and
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."
I understand Jesus and the apostles to be saying that their ambassadors should not be voting in foreign elections. After all, why would you vote for someone whose policies and behaviors are not aligned with the values and visions of the Kingdom of God. So it is not so much that ambassadors can't vote in foreign elections but whether they are given instructions that make it obvious that they shouldn't be voting.

Some people think that voting for the one who is most closely aligned to the Kingdom of God will further God's plans.
My observation is the exact opposite. When it really comes down to it, candidates who claim to be Christian, while running for "Commander-in-Chief" are likely to make it difficult for missionaries around the world to expand the Kingdom of God.
Last edited by Ernie on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Ernie wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I don't think voting is the same as joining a political party or declaring loyalty to a political party, I think it is deciding which of the candidates is best for a particular job, picking one of the choices the parties give us. To me, this is part of public engagement, like picking up the trash on the road or in a park, or attending parent's meetings at school. And I think of public engagement as a good thing, building a sense of community and being in this together.
This position makes several assumptions in my mind. Reword them if you don't agree.

1. This position assumes that voting (and researching candidates of popular parties who have a chance at winning) is a worthwhile and effective use of time.
2. It assumes that this use of time is one of the better ways to use ones time.
3. It assumes that conventional norms of democratic society are good norms.
I prefer stable democracy to most other forms of government, and consider it a blessing to live in peace. And I do think that I am part of a secular community, not just my faith community. I have neighbors and a neighborhood and I live in a city and a state and a country. Paul wrote this to Timothy:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
Back then, they didn't get a vote on who their leaders would be. A vote is probably less effective than prayer, sometimes I feel like neither is doing as much as I wish. But if we Christians want to "lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way", Paul says government has a role to play. And that's where I have a dog in this fight. That's why I vote.

The odds that my vote will be the deciding vote are infinitesimal, and it does take time. I guess I feel the same way about so many things I do - what are the odds that speaking to this neighbor, reading this passage today, posting on MN, or anything else will really make a difference for the Kingdom? It's hard to know how best to use our time for the Kingdom. So far, MN is probably much more of a distraction for me than voting.
Ernie wrote:4. It assumes that a person can have "dual citizenship" as Martin Luther proposed, rather than an "ambassador only" position, as was commonly understood by the early Anabaptists.

Would you say that Christians have a "responsibility", as the article below states or an "opportunity"?
Either way, I don't think that early Anabaptists would have seen either to be a tool of the Kingdom of God.
Paul invoked his Roman citizenship to advance the gospel, and I suppose I'm voting in the same spirit. An ambassador does try to influence the direction of the country he is living in, as a representative of another kingdom. An ambassador does not vote, but I don't think we should stretch the ambassador analogy beyond its original intent. My guess is that Michael Sattler would never vote, but Pilgram Marpeck probably would. Hubmaier probably would too. Since voting did not exist back then, we can only speculate.

I think Christians wrestle with questions like voting for a good reason. And on many issues, I think there's something healthy about this wrestling, especially if it is done in peace and prayerfully. I don't see voting as an obligation, and I appreciate those Christians who choose not to vote.

When we wrestle with this kind of issue, I don't think we have to agree. I think we can learn from each other even if we choose different positions on this kind of issue. The wrestling helps us remember what is most important.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Ernie wrote:Some people think that voting for the one who is most closely aligned to the Kingdom of God will further God's plans.

My observation is the exact opposite. When it really comes down to it, candidates who claim to be Christian, while running for "Commander-in-Chief" are likely to make it difficult for missionaries around the world to expand the Kingdom of God.
Absolutely.

And I suspect part of your allergy to voting is that when we vote for a candidate who claims to be Christian, and the press announces that he was elected by the Evangelical vote, people can look on that president as the face of our Christianity. And people like Trump, Clinton, or Bernie Sanders do not look much like Jesus to me.

So we definitely need a way to loudly proclaim that our political leaders are not the representatives of our faith.
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MaxPC
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by MaxPC »

Ernie wrote:
RZehr wrote: The problem is because with heavenly citizenship, I also also hold American citizenship.
Isn't the right to vote is granted by the host country? If Mexico gave US citizens the right to vote, then I expect the US ambassador would vote in Mexican elections.
The uniqueness of heavenly citizenship, is that the earthly countries allow us to vote.
I guess I'm propositioning that our non-voting position goes beyond the ambassador reason. I think a big part of our noninvolvement is simply experience. We have learned by trial and error that we are better off not voting. It is a cleaner, easier way. We don't say voting is sin. We don't have to have a tight theological reason to refrain.
No, I wouldn't say voting is sin. Yet I would say it is not wise or excellent or good. And so whenever someone concludes that something is unwise and keeps on doing it then it becomes sin.

In conservative Anabaptist settings we make more of these types of decisions corporately rather than individually.

Every country has its own expectations. Some countries allow dual citizenship. Others do not.
The US allows dual citizenship with other countries as well as with the Kingdom of Heaven. For this privilege I am very grateful. Most people who have been part of the pilgrim church through the centuries have not had this privilege.
When I read the NT, I understand Jesus to say that any citizenship in an earthy nation should not distract us from our heavenly citizenship. The apostles seemed to understand this also when they said things like,
"No man who goes to war entangles himself with the cares of this life."
and
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."
I understand Jesus and the apostles to be saying that their ambassadors should not be voting in foreign elections. After all, why would you vote for someone whose policies and behaviors are not aligned with the values and visions of the Kingdom of God. So it is not so much that ambassadors can't vote in foreign elections but whether they are given instructions that make it obvious that they shouldn't be voting.

Some people think that voting for the one who is most closely aligned to the Kingdom of God will further God's plans.
My observation is the exact opposite. When it really comes down to it, candidates who claim to be Christian, while running for "Commander-in-Chief" are likely to make it difficult for missionaries around the world to expand the Kingdom of God.
Both of these posts hit the spot for me.
:up:
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:Both of these posts hit the spot for me.
So how do you relate to this as a Catholic, since the Catholic Catechism teaches that voting is an obligation for Christians? Do you disagree with official church doctrine on this point?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Ernie wrote:Every country has its own expectations. Some countries allow dual citizenship. Others do not.
The US allows dual citizenship with other countries as well as with the Kingdom of Heaven. For this privilege I am very grateful. Most people who have been part of the pilgrim church through the centuries have not had this privilege.
When I read the NT, I understand Jesus to say that any citizenship in an earthy nation should not distract us from our heavenly citizenship. The apostles seemed to understand this also when they said things like,
"No man who goes to war entangles himself with the cares of this life."
and
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."
I agree 100% with what you said above.
Ernie wrote:I understand Jesus and the apostles to be saying that their ambassadors should not be voting in foreign elections. After all, why would you vote for someone whose policies and behaviors are not aligned with the values and visions of the Kingdom of God. So it is not so much that ambassadors can't vote in foreign elections but whether they are given instructions that make it obvious that they shouldn't be voting.
I don't vote because I think our leaders are running the Kingdom of God, I vote for the same reason that I pray for leaders:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior ...
In Paul's day, those leaders could be as bad as or worse than our leaders today. When I pray for Donald Trump, I'm not saying that he is a representative of my faith.
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