Voting without warring

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I may not be trying it the right way - and I'm happy to learn how to do better - but I am definitely trying it. Please teach me if you have things I should learn, and let's learn from each other. I do see a difference between opposing political warring and taking sides in the political wars.

Maybe it starts with Paul's frequent approach of looking at who we are in Christ and who we are as God's children. It is not right that we, as God's children, take our identities from the political factions among us, often repeating the memes they give us and the words carefully designed by their marketing geniuses, and bite and devour each other.
I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. I just feel it's going to be difficult to address this in a meaningful way if we have a dog in the fight such as having voted for someone the other person has voted against. The very nature of politics is divisive and has always been intense.
Gary and Dan are making a serious point here, and I want to address it in a separate thread. A lot of plain Mennos take exactly the position they outlined above.

I want to honor that, but it's not the way that I see it, and I'd like to explain my view too. I don't think voting is the same as joining a political party or declaring loyalty to a political party, I think it is deciding which of the candidates is best for a particular job, picking one of the choices the parties give us. For me, at least, it involves taking time to research their backgrounds, their positions, the plans they have stated, usually focusing on what they have actually done in the past rather than what they are saying in the heat of a campaign. I try to do that carefully and fairly, and that's one reason I won't join a party - I think it makes it harder to be fair. To me, this is part of public engagement, like picking up the trash on the road or in a park, or attending parent's meetings at school. And I think of public engagement as a good thing, building a sense of community and being in this together. The most important community is our church, of course, but we also need community beyond that.

I don't see voting as warfare. Where I grew up, and in the circles I live in, nobody asks someone else if they voted or who they voted for. That's considered rude, and a vote is considered private. That etiquette evolved precisely because politics can get pretty emotional. You can often guess from the conversation, but sometimes you aren't sure. In online forums there are people who ask you straight out who you voted for, speculate if you don't tell the, and brand you and demonize you if you voted for a candidate they didn't like. I consider that a form of bullying, but I haven't quite figured out how to tell people that it's really none of their business who I voted for without seeming rude myself. But if you can't vote without being in a war, then democracy is in danger.

The winds have shifted, so maybe some people can understand this now in a way they couldn't under the last president. Suppose you have advocated Trump in public or voted for Trump. I don't think we will know how the Trump presidency turns out until he's had some time to govern. Suppose it turns out that Trump isn't a great president for some reason or another, or some very serious flaws become very obvious. I hope that nobody will try to make you responsible for all of Trump's shortcomings. And if you think Trump was the better choice, voting for him was the right thing to do. That's what democracy is all about.

So on balance, I prefer a world where we vote in a democracy, your vote is private, and nobody demonizes you for your vote, even if the candidate doesn't turn out great.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Dan Z
Posts: 2648
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: Conservative Menno

Re: Voting without warring

Post by Dan Z »

I respect that bootstrap...and I suspect that if I voted, I would do so for the same reasons you have articulated. I also sense in you a sincere desire to remain ideologically independent and guided by faith-driven ethics rather than party loyalty. Bravo!

But, putting aside for the moment a) two-kingdom theology, b) the compromise of participating in the coercive power of the state, and c) the way politics divides the body of Christ...I believe me there a danger in voting that lurks beneath the surface - it's impact on us. We're not as rationally independent as we think we are.

Unfortunately, when I look around...many (most) well-meaning Christians (left and right) who get involved in politics don't fare too well in resisting the pressure to conform to party ideology (come look at my FaceBook feed if you need confirmation). :)

The reasons for this are insidious, and linked to a number of sociological/psychological reasons for this:
  • 1) Tribalism - God gave humans strong social instincts that move us toward conformity with those whom we identify. We want to belong - and for relational reasons we tend to form our convictions to match those of the group we aspire to be a part of - whether church or political movement. The question is "what tribe do we want forming our worldview, and where should our allegiance lie?"

    2) Motivated Reasoning - Also called confirmation bias, humans tend to over-emphasize facts that support their previous conclusions, and de-emphasize facts that run counter to their preconceived notions. In politics, when we have a "dog in the hunt" we will have a tendency to root for that dog's success, and eventually see that dog as more virtuous than the other dogs.

    3) Cult of Personality - I mentioned this in another thread, but we have a penchant for idealizing (& villainizing) our leaders. It was certainly true for Obama - and is for Trump as well. Both pro and con, we end up with a caricature of reality that is more emotively created than rationally created. A subtle (& sometimes not so subtle) form of idolatry can result.
I think we're all susceptible to these forces (I know I am), and for me, conscientious abstention from voting is one of the ways I can protect my allegiances and my independence of thought/conviction.
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:Unfortunately, when I look around...many (most) well-meaning Christians (left and right) who get involved in politics don't fare too well in resisting the pressure to conform to party ideology (come look at my FaceBook feed if you need confirmation). :)
Dan Z wrote:I think we're all susceptible to these forces (I know I am), and for me, conscientious abstention from voting is one of the ways I can protect my allegiances and my independence of thought/conviction.
I agree that we are all susceptible to these forces - just as we are susceptible to deceiving ourselves about sexual temptation or greed. And for some people, I bet not voting really helps. It would also be convenient for me, if someone asks me who I voted for in a debate, to say I don't vote. And answering the way you do could be a good witness.

I'm not sure that non-voters are less susceptible to these forces than voters. On my Facebook feed, I see non-voting Mennonites whose posts closely resemble the posts of the most politically active people I know. Naturally, I also see voting Mennonites whose posts look like that, on both the left and the right. Since we're Facebook friends, I can say that I think your Facebook feed is consistent with what you say about yourself here, and you know that I don't post much at all about politics on Facebook. But I can be as hypocritical as anyone - and I think we are all hypocrites at times. Most of the time, online forums are more of a temptation to me than voting, and MN is the only forum I'm on where political issues come up.

To me, this is a little like plain dress. It's not a biblical requirement. It definitely expresses some biblical values. Other people might express those same values in different ways. I can see the value in not voting, but I also see value in saying that we really can discuss what's going on around us in a civil, thoughtful way. And even vote.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Voting without warring

Post by MaxPC »

Dan Z wrote: But, putting aside for the moment a) two-kingdom theology, b) the compromise of participating in the coercive power of the state, and c) the way politics divides the body of Christ...I believe me there a danger in voting that lurks beneath the surface - it's impact on us. We're not as rationally independent as we think we are.

Unfortunately, when I look around...many (most) well-meaning Christians (left and right) who get involved in politics don't fare too well in resisting the pressure to conform to party ideology (come look at my FaceBook feed if you need confirmation). :)

The reasons for this are insidious, and linked to a number of sociological/psychological reasons for this:
  • 1) Tribalism - God gave humans strong social instincts that move us toward conformity with those whom we identify. We want to belong - and for relational reasons we tend to form our convictions to match those of the group we aspire to be a part of - whether church or political movement. The question is "what tribe do we want forming our worldview, and where should our allegiance lie?"

    2) Motivated Reasoning - Also called confirmation bias, humans tend to over-emphasize facts that support their previous conclusions, and de-emphasize facts that run counter to their preconceived notions. In politics, when we have a "dog in the hunt" we will have a tendency to root for that dog's success, and eventually see that dog as more virtuous than the other dogs.

    3) Cult of Personality - I mentioned this in another thread, but we have a penchant for idealizing (& villainizing) our leaders. It was certainly true for Obama - and is for Trump as well. Both pro and con, we end up with a caricature of reality that is more emotively created than rationally created. A subtle (& sometimes not so subtle) form of idolatry can result.
I think we're all susceptible to these forces (I know I am), and for me, conscientious abstention from voting is one of the ways I can protect my allegiances and my independence of thought/conviction.
Spot on, Dan. Well said!
:clap: :clap: :clap:
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
Dan Z
Posts: 2648
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:20 am
Location: Central Minnesota
Affiliation: Conservative Menno

Re: Voting without warring

Post by Dan Z »

Bootstrap wrote:I'm not sure that non-voters are less susceptible to these forces than voters.
Absolutely. Good point.

I think we're all susceptible to these forces (I know I am), and for me, conscientious abstention from voting is one of the ways I can protect my allegiances and my independence of thought/conviction. There is a lot more to guarding our hearts and minds than that.
0 x
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Voting without warring

Post by MaxPC »

Dan Z wrote:
I think we're all susceptible to these forces (I know I am), and for me, conscientious abstention from voting is one of the ways I can protect my allegiances and my independence of thought/conviction. There is a lot more to guarding our hearts and minds than that.
Again, well said, Dan. :up:
There are many time-consuming distractions in life that draw our focus and allegiance away from our walk with Christ. Party Politics require an allegiance to an ideology. It soon becomes an extraordinary time sink of emotional debates when others disagree.

For those who are conscientious about learning the candidates' positions before voting they soon find that it becomes a battle for their attention among the various public relations media: another high cost distraction.

I've personally learned that my earnest youthful enthusiasms decades ago over campaign issues and their proponents soon turned to a cycle of enthusiasm and disappointment as each politician fell from his pedestal through human failures. Idolatry comes in many forms.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:For those who are conscientious about learning the candidates' positions before voting they soon find that it becomes a battle for their attention among the various public relations media: another high cost distraction.
I agree, it takes a lot of time and attention, but often these things are so vivid in the public discourse that we either let ourselves be completely swamped with the things they are selling us, or we have to weigh them and see if they are true.

If we're not discerning, we're probably unconsciously absorbing and buying into what they are selling us. I can definitely see people deciding not to take any position on things like global warming, what the current crime rate is, etc., but those who choose to have strong opinions without examining them probably don't know where those opinions came from.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Voting without warring

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I'm not sure that non-voters are less susceptible to these forces than voters.
Absolutely. Good point.

I think we're all susceptible to these forces (I know I am), and for me, conscientious abstention from voting is one of the ways I can protect my allegiances and my independence of thought/conviction. There is a lot more to guarding our hearts and minds than that.
And if we decide to war over whether we should vote, we've just found a different topic to war over ;->

I agree, allegiances and independence of thought/conviction are both really important.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Voting without warring

Post by Josh »

Boot,

You may be seeing that plain Mennonites who frequently post to Facebook are a lot more assimilated into the world than you might think. Often, this starts with political assimilation.

Amongst the Mennonites I know who don't use social media or who refrain from really ever "sharing" etc. -- politics comes up surprisingly rarely. It probably helps when the communities of such people avoid highly politicised news to a degree (eg they would not look at the Fox News homepage due to the worldliness / immoral advertisements and images on it).
0 x
User avatar
JimFoxvog
Posts: 2891
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:56 pm
Location: Northern Illinois
Affiliation: MCUSA

Re: Voting without warring

Post by JimFoxvog »

Just a little comment on this:
Bootstrap wrote:I haven't quite figured out how to tell people that it's really none of their business who I voted for without seeming rude myself.
How about "I kind of like the custom I grew up with, where we kept our votes secret"? End of response.
0 x
Post Reply