Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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JohnHurt
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by JohnHurt »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:Samuel is not a Sovereign Citizen. He is Amish.

No one was injured by Samuel's products.

Samuel's products were tested for drugs, and no drugs were found in them. This puts Samuel's products outside the scope of the FDA.

So no crime was committed, other than Samuel would not recognize the jurisdiction of an agency that did not have jurisdiction.

Here are the notes from the sentencing:
http://www.kyfreepress.com/2017/07/repo ... entencing/

and notes on the indictment itself:
http://www.kyfreepress.com/2017/01/fda- ... ndictment/
John:

Did you read the stuff you attached?

""The federal prosecutor, Kate Smith, was given an opportunity to explain why the state wants a harsh sentence and she did not pass on the opportunity. She asked for a fine of $25,000 as well as jail time, specifically citing Sam’s “Sovereign Citizen” claims and his refusal to admit guilt. The judge made similar comments throughout the sentencing.""

This is from the notes on the sentencing from above.

J.M.
I must have dismissed what the prosecutor said, just like what the judge said in the next paragraph which states:

"The judge then stated, “There have been a lot of incorrect statements made about this case.” He said that it’s not about salve. It’s about refusing to follow the law. Misbranding. Interstate commerce. Jury tampering."

How Mr. Girod was able to tamper with the jury is hard to believe, just the other claims against him that he was an active member in the Sovereign Citizen movement. So yes, I must have breezed over it. "Sovereign Citizens" usually file false liens, or other false documents, in an effort to avoid taxes. There were no taxes avoided here. He just does not fit this description. But, it does taint the jury pool very well, as this allegation would equate Mr. Girod with some of the very criminal activities that the Sovereign Citizen movement has engaged in.

This man was guilty of Chickweed salve, then guilty of not letting someone enter his home. He defied the judge, and the FDA by making some claims for his home remedy - which claims cannot be proven true or false. I mean, if chickweed salve could indeed remove some topical forms of skin cancer - would that have made a difference in this case? No. It is all about power.

But if any type of home remedy or salve is really a "drug" as Josh has explained, then none of us are safe from this action. What they did to Samuel Girod today, they can do to anyone that makes herbal remedies, OR SELLS THEM.

Here is what the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution says about the jurisdiction of the FDA:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The FDA is not in the Constitution, and the monitoring of Food and Drugs is a matter to be left up to the States. And here is the proof:

In 1919, when the Federal Government established Prohibition against consumption of alcohol, they had to get a the 18th Constitutional Amendment ratified through the States, as the US Constitution does not grant them this power. When they legalized alcohol at the Federal level in 1933, they had to ratify the 21st Amendment to do so.

This is because the 10th Amendment clearly granted any power not listed in the Constitution to the States, or the people, and not the Federal government.

After WWII, Congress no longer worried about the 10th Amendment, and created all of the 3 letter agencies: DOD, FCC, FDA, CIA, DHS. None of these agencies are granted power by the Constitution, and they either need to be ratified by a Constitutional Amendment to even exist, or their power should devolve back to the States, or to the people, according to the 10th Amendment, which was part of the original Bill of Rights.

Mr. Girod's mistake was to believe that we are still a Constitutional form of government.

The FDA and the judge in this case only have "jurisdiction" because they have the force of arms to back them up.

And the 6 year sentence was not to "correct" Mr. Girod, but to scare the rest of us into submission. Six years in jail won't do anything but put a hardship on Mr. Girod's family.

What I admire about most of the very conservative Anabaptists, is that they refuse to participate in these forms of government. They won't vote, and won't hold a public office. But even then, that won't get you outside the reach of a determined bureaucrat.

I look to Christ to know how to deal with this situation:

First, you avoid them, and agree quickly with anyone that tries to take you to court, because you won't get any real justice from the court:

Matthew 5:(25) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

(26) Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

And though you may be the children of another kingdom and not responsible to pay their taxes, you should pay them anyway, as not paying their taxes or following their rules will offend them:

Matthew 17:(24) And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

(25) He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

(26) Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

(27) Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

And if the government is printing money, and you are using money, then you need to give the government's money back to them when they ask for a return of their own possession:

Matthew 22:(17) Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

(18) But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

(19) Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

(20) And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

(21) They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

But for everything else that you do, especially as a form of free charity to other people, you don't owe them anything at all. This all belongs to God. You belong to God, as do your children, your life, your faith, the food you grow in your own garden, the animals you raise and process yourself, and everything else. If you are self sufficient and don't need their money, they you won't need to pay their taxes.

We don't bring anything into this world, and will take nothing out. And we really don't need that much. But in studying this case, it drives home the point that I owe nothing to these monsters, except to avoid them, as my King has instructed me.

Samuel Girod should have agreed with them immediately, and shut down his home business, waited a few months, then opened back up in another location under a new name, with every i dotted, and t crossed.

These bureaucrats are looking to punish anyone that opposes them. But there is absolutely nothing they can do to make you love and support them of your own free will.

This is what made the old Soviet Union fall apart. They had more rules than the FDA, and more prisons and gulags to back it all up. But the people lost faith in their government, and only served it when required, not out of love for it. The people just did not work that hard for socialism.

This case will be making a lot of people re-evaluate their love for the FDA and other Federal agencies.

All because of chickweed salve... How ridiculous.
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Josh
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Josh »

Actually, Jesus spent lots of time engaging with tax collectors and John the Baptist preached to Roman soldiers and to King Herod.

He never challenged their authority to rule or to levy taxes and regulations - he just told them to start following his news ways. Do no violence to no one. Be content with your wages. And he did rebuke King Herod for unlawfully having his brother's wife.

Your king has never told you to disobey FDA regulations by falsely claiming chickweed can cure cancer.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by JimFoxvog »

Josh wrote:Actually, Jesus spent lots of time engaging with tax collectors and John the Baptist preached to Roman soldiers and to King Herod.

He never challenged their authority to rule or to levy taxes and regulations - he just told them to start following his news ways. Do no violence to no one. Be content with your wages. And he did rebuke King Herod for unlawfully having his brother's wife.
One minor correction. It was John the Baptist who rebuked Herod.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by ken_sylvania »

JohnHurt wrote: I must have dismissed what the prosecutor said, just like what the judge said in the next paragraph which states:

"The judge then stated, “There have been a lot of incorrect statements made about this case.” He said that it’s not about salve. It’s about refusing to follow the law. Misbranding. Interstate commerce. Jury tampering."
Some of the distributors of his product testified that he tried to convince them not to cooperate with the federal investigation. That is called witness tampering.
JohnHurt wrote: How Mr. Girod was able to tamper with the jury is hard to believe, just the other claims against him that he was an active member in the Sovereign Citizen movement. So yes, I must have breezed over it. "Sovereign Citizens" usually file false liens, or other false documents, in an effort to avoid taxes. There were no taxes avoided here. He just does not fit this description. But, it does taint the jury pool very well, as this allegation would equate Mr. Girod with some of the very criminal activities that the Sovereign Citizen movement has engaged in.
John, have you ever read the documents that Girod filed with the court? He made plenty of the same outlandish claims that the "Sovereign Citizen" people are fond of.
Curious how you know that he paid taxes on his income from selling this salve? Are you sure that he did?
JohnHurt wrote: This man was guilty of Chickweed salve, then guilty of not letting someone enter his home. He defied the judge, and the FDA by making some claims for his home remedy - which claims cannot be proven true or false. I mean, if chickweed salve could indeed remove some topical forms of skin cancer - would that have made a difference in this case? No. It is all about power.
If he had followed the law and performed the appropriate studies to prove that his product was effective, then labeled his product appropriately, it would absolutely have made a difference. I agree, though, that it is about power. The powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever resists the power resists the ordinance of God, and will receive damnation.
JohnHurt wrote: But if any type of home remedy or salve is really a "drug" as Josh has explained, then none of us are safe from this action. What they did to Samuel Girod today, they can do to anyone that makes herbal remedies, OR SELLS THEM.
If you make "herbal remedies," claim that they will treat or cure disease, and sell them in interstate commerce, yes.
JohnHurt wrote: Here is what the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution says about the jurisdiction of the FDA:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The FDA is not in the Constitution, and the monitoring of Food and Drugs is a matter to be left up to the States.
John, have you ever read the Constitution? Any idea what Section Eight of Article I says?
It says that Congress has the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."
Part of Girod's problem was that he was selling across state lines. Congress has the Constitutional right to regulate such commerce.
JohnHurt wrote: And here is the proof:

In 1919, when the Federal Government established Prohibition against consumption of alcohol, they had to get a the 18th Constitutional Amendment ratified through the States, as the US Constitution does not grant them this power. When they legalized alcohol at the Federal level in 1933, they had to ratify the 21st Amendment to do so.

This is because the 10th Amendment clearly granted any power not listed in the Constitution to the States, or the people, and not the Federal government.
Apples and oranges, my friend. Prohibition banned all manufacture, sale and transportation of beverage alcohol, regardless of whether it crossed state lines. There would have been no need for an amendment in order to regulate the sale of alcohol crossing state lines.
JohnHurt wrote: Mr. Girod's mistake was to believe that we are still a Constitutional form of government.

The FDA and the judge in this case only have "jurisdiction" because they have the force of arms to back them up.

.snip....

I look to Christ to know how to deal with this situation:
Jesus said to Pilate "You would have no power against me except it was given you from above. Has it ever crossed you mind that maybe the government you revile so much has been put into place by God. For our good. Is it really appropriate to describe God's gift in such derogatory terms. Would it not be much better to appreciate the blessings that God has given us, including the blessing of a stable government?
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Hats Off »

I am surprised that Mr. Girod did not receive a longer sentence. Being Amish does not put him above the law and it does not matter what our opinion is of the law. And I really do not believe there is any scripture honestly applied that supports Mr. Girod's actions.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by JohnHurt »

ken_sylvania wrote: Jesus said to Pilate "You would have no power against me except it was given you from above. Has it ever crossed you mind that maybe the government you revile so much has been put into place by God. For our good. Is it really appropriate to describe God's gift in such derogatory terms. Would it not be much better to appreciate the blessings that God has given us, including the blessing of a stable government?
I have a hard time believing that Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, A. Hitler, or even Nimrod in Genesis 10 were men of God that gave us the blessings of a stable government. These men all used "government" to wage war against our faith. I have friends whose parents escaped the Holodomor, which was the democide of their people, where 7 to 10 million people were killed by starvation - intentionally, and by their own government. I just don't believe that every government is something I need to appreciate as the blessings of God given to us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

And your point about the commerce clause in the Constitution is correct. Even the FCC uses this as their basis for existence, as they state that since radio waves move across state lines, then they have the right to regulate them, and impose the "Fairness Doctrine" and other rules on the states. But how "radio waves" are "commerce", that eludes me.

If someone in the State of Missouri had been injured by Mr. Girod's Chickweed salve, which was manufactured in the State of Kentucky, then it is evident that arbitration should occur at a higher level, and the commerce clause would apply. But no one was injured, Ken. The FDA is doing more than "regulating commerce among the several states" when it puts a man in jail for 6 years for making Chickweed salve with a label with claims that cannot be completely validated, or discredited.

I know we disagree, but I do hope that we can agree that 6 years of your life, or anyone's life, is more than what was necessary in this case.

And the real culprit is not the FDA, or the judge, but the Pharmaceutical companies whose officers rotate between their company positions, and working for the FDA. The impact of these corporations is why you are seeing this example made of Samuel Girod.

Samuel's other "crime" was to not have a defense attorney. The Amish Raw Milk Farmer, Vernon Hershberger, won his case with his defense attorneys.

If Samuel did not have a defense attorney, then there was probably no contest over the jury selected from the pool, with the prosecution and judge selecting a jury of Mr. Girod's "peers". You and I both know the judge and prosecutor hand picked the jury that would condemn him, without objection, and these people were in no way Mr. Girod's "peers". That is jury tampering, and it happens every day, but since the Judge and the prosecutor does it, it is "OK". A random selection of jurors should be the norm, but in reality, a prosecutor will eliminate any juror that believes in "jury nullification". The concept of "jury nullification" is a basic right and the true purpose of a jury. If it is a bad law, or does not apply in this case, or the government has overstepped its authority, the jury has the right to nullify both the judge and the prosecutor. But that is something the judge will fight tooth and nail.

Blessings to you.

John
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Joy »

JohnHurt wrote:
Samuel Girod should have agreed with them immediately, and shut down his home business, waited a few months, then opened back up in another location under a new name, with every i dotted, and t crossed.

All because of chickweed salve... How ridiculous.
I agree, John. He should have followed biblical commands, and he would have been spared all this. Disobey those in authority, disobey God.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

JohnHurt wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote: Jesus said to Pilate "You would have no power against me except it was given you from above. Has it ever crossed you mind that maybe the government you revile so much has been put into place by God. For our good. Is it really appropriate to describe God's gift in such derogatory terms. Would it not be much better to appreciate the blessings that God has given us, including the blessing of a stable government?
I have a hard time believing that Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, A. Hitler, or even Nimrod in Genesis 10 were men of God that gave us the blessings of a stable government. These men all used "government" to wage war against our faith. I have friends whose parents escaped the Holodomor, which was the democide of their people, where 7 to 10 million people were killed by starvation - intentionally, and by their own government. I just don't believe that every government is something I need to appreciate as the blessings of God given to us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

And your point about the commerce clause in the Constitution is correct. Even the FCC uses this as their basis for existence, as they state that since radio waves move across state lines, then they have the right to regulate them, and impose the "Fairness Doctrine" and other rules on the states. But how "radio waves" are "commerce", that eludes me.

If someone in the State of Missouri had been injured by Mr. Girod's Chickweed salve, which was manufactured in the State of Kentucky, then it is evident that arbitration should occur at a higher level, and the commerce clause would apply. But no one was injured, Ken. The FDA is doing more than "regulating commerce among the several states" when it puts a man in jail for 6 years for making Chickweed salve with a label with claims that cannot be completely validated, or discredited.

I know we disagree, but I do hope that we can agree that 6 years of your life, or anyone's life, is more than what was necessary in this case.

And the real culprit is not the FDA, or the judge, but the Pharmaceutical companies whose officers rotate between their company positions, and working for the FDA. The impact of these corporations is why you are seeing this example made of Samuel Girod.

Samuel's other "crime" was to not have a defense attorney. The Amish Raw Milk Farmer, Vernon Hershberger, won his case with his defense attorneys.

If Samuel did not have a defense attorney, then there was probably no contest over the jury selected from the pool, with the prosecution and judge selecting a jury of Mr. Girod's "peers". You and I both know the judge and prosecutor hand picked the jury that would condemn him, without objection, and these people were in no way Mr. Girod's "peers". That is jury tampering, and it happens every day, but since the Judge and the prosecutor does it, it is "OK". A random selection of jurors should be the norm, but in reality, a prosecutor will eliminate any juror that believes in "jury nullification". The concept of "jury nullification" is a basic right and the true purpose of a jury. If it is a bad law, or does not apply in this case, or the government has overstepped its authority, the jury has the right to nullify both the judge and the prosecutor. But that is something the judge will fight tooth and nail.

Blessings to you.

John
John:

Are you sure you don't hold these kind of views yourself. Jury nullification is one of the "pillars" of this movement. The local "Sovereign Citizen" group distributes a jury handbook encouraging this. They have infiltrated, and in one case almost taken over one of the evangelical churches near here.

I am not all that concerned about the "constitution. The Bible is the constitution of the life I have taken up, with Jesus as my Lord. We live in obedience to Him. And sometimes we die. Anabaptism has a theology of martyrdom in it.

Dean Taylor did an excellent video on this subject, entitled "What If." If you are really interested in Anabaptist theology, you may want to take a look.

You are aware that no one rules except by God's permission. We are to obey them as much as we can, both good and bad. When Paul was giving his instructions, he had Rome in mind. Can't get much worse than that.

J.M.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Josh »

The Constitution declares slaves to be worth 3/5ths of a free person and it also made the institution of slavery permanent.

The U.S. Constitution is an anti-Christian, anti-Kingdom, anti-Jesus document.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by RZehr »

The victims in this case are all his competitors in the market place that played by the rules. They are economic victims. No doubt this was rather insignificant in this instance, but there is such a thing as economic harm, and I believe it is good government and economics to enforce rules.
But 6 years? That is absolutely ridiculous!
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