Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:If we make selling snake oil legal then big business will get in on it. They used to sell tobacco purporting health benefits.
Josh:

There is BIG money in this stuff. The "Alternative Medicine" folks don't come cheap.

J.M.
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Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Wade »

For me when I was all for secular medicine - I was completely irresponsible in letting the doctor take care of me.
When I realized doctors are often wrong and human then I became wreckless in following alternative medicine.

I prefer the middle of the road now and take advantage of the benefits from both.

Preventative care is more enjoyable than reactive care, although physical weakness and death are not avoidable. May God be glorified and all be drawn closer to Him by the recognition of our frailty.
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Valerie
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Valerie »

Wade wrote:For me when I was all for secular medicine - I was completely irresponsible in letting the doctor take care of me.
When I realized doctors are often wrong and human then I became wreckless in following alternative medicine.

I prefer the middle of the road now and take advantage of the benefits from both.

Preventative care is more enjoyable than reactive care, although physical weakness and death are not avoidable. May God be glorified and all be drawn closer to Him by the recognition of our frailty.
Amen
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Valerie
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:Witch doctors make a lot more sense now.
Josh, amazing how youve become so haughty, cynical & an expert on everything. My pharmicist who is highly respected in the field just explained he was very familiar with the baking soda treatment & does not consider it quackery, has heard of its effectiveness, explained to me how it works, knew which organs its most effective in. I value his opinion over your less than knowledgeable assumptions
Excuse me? IF a pharmacist is really promoting this he is likely going to lose his license if caught. IF he is a community pharmacist, they are unlikely to deal with chemotherapy agents of the process of cancer treatment. That is an unapproved treatment, and he would fall under the same law as the Amish guy in the OP.

I have seen this all before. I live in what became one of the epicenters of Laetrile. One of the compounding pharmacists I know lost his license over this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin

See how quackery works!

J.M.
J.M. I work in the same drugstore as this pharmacist- I was not a 'customer' when I talked with him about it today- I value his opinion as he is highly respected. He seemed to know what he was talking about- explaining how the baking soda would work- and his opinion is that it is not 'quackery' because I asked him directly, if he thought so.
You mention money, and all I can do is compare both our friends who were diagnosed with colon cancer-- one's bills went way over $100,000- and he died- he was so sick from the chemo treatments & weak he could no longer do his very physical job.
Our other friend got so sick he decided to give it up- that is when his onocologist advised him to go to Italy. And it was a fraction of the cost. He was being shown by camera, how both tumors were shrinking smaller & smaller- 8 weeks- gone-

You say Dr. Tullio Simoncini lost his license in 2006 but this article is from 2015, and our friend received the treatment approx 5 years ago- so how can that be? It also says he's been instrumental here in the U.S. helping to start a clinic
Anyway, chemo didn't help Ernie, left his family broke, of course the community helped pitch in $80,000 for his bills-
Sean was 'finished' in 8 weeks, tumors completely gone (that his dr. in Chicago assumed would take his life in 6 to 12 mo) and it's been a good 4 or 5 years without any further treatment and he's thriving, just retired- and doing very well- it's why he would recommend this to others-

If you 'meet' the team here- you can see they are not Amish but Medical professionals- this clinic is in Tempe AZ, these Dr. are licensed and using the soda treatment- if it were me, and I wanted to fight the cancer- I think I would be inclined to go here:
https://natureworksbest.com/

And it is not 'snake oil' being practiced at the cancer center in AZ:
https://natureworksbest.com/dr-tullio-s ... treatment/
and these are professionals:
naturopathic physicians are licensed to practice medicine, and therefore do not work under or over medical doctors, unless they choose to partner together. The naturopathic medical curriculum includes all of the conventional medical doctors' curriculum plus the naturopathic modalities, so there are more than twice as many courses and more than twice as many classroom hours in naturopathic school than in conventional medical school. The way that a naturopathic physician uses baking soda includes in liquid, sterile form and is administered as medicine.


I'm glad they are improving chemotherapy, I am with John Hurt and Wade on this- prevention-

I'm sorry by sharing our friend's testimony it raised such a ruckus- I guess if you would have been in our shoes and witnessed the whole thing- you might feel different- plus losing our other dear friend, who chose chemo- maybe it is just too personal for us.
Last edited by Valerie on Sat May 06, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Valerie
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Josh wrote:If we make selling snake oil legal then big business will get in on it. They used to sell tobacco purporting health benefits.
Josh:

There is BIG money in this stuff. The "Alternative Medicine" folks don't come cheap.

J.M.
Because they need more of an education perhaps? I am not sure- Big Pharma doesn't like them, I know that- however as I shared, our friend was cured of cancer at a fraction of the cost.

Our other friend who was mishandled by her doctors who ended up turning to naturopath dr. recently had already spent thousands, because of all the damage her meds had done to her nervous system, etc- and they could NOT find a solution and she's been sharing with me how grateful she is for finding this naturopath-I'm clueless what it is costing her, but whatever it is, she at least won't feel like she 'wasted' her money like she did before, and she is speaking out with others to warn-
Maybe these stories have caused me to consider paths I never would have before.

However, we are very grateful to the medical field and to God because my husband is a recipient of a kidney & pancreas transplant- so like Wade, I see the benefits of both fields.
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RZehr
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by RZehr »

Wade wrote:For me when I was all for secular medicine - I was completely irresponsible in letting the doctor take care of me.
When I realized doctors are often wrong and human then I became wreckless in following alternative medicine.

I prefer the middle of the road now and take advantage of the benefits from both.

Preventative care is more enjoyable than reactive care, although physical weakness and death are not avoidable. May God be glorified and all be drawn closer to Him by the recognition of our frailty.
:up: I am quite skeptical of alternative medicine, but I am sure there are some good ones. I simply don't have to time and expertise to sift through them all and figure out which ones are beneficial.
So I always end up going with the more studied conventional medicine when I need some medicine. I tend to believe the controlled studies more than anecdotal evidence and testimony. But I believe our society is over medicated.
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lesterb
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by lesterb »

Valerie wrote: I'm sorry by sharing our friend's testimony it raised such a ruckus- I guess if you would have been in our shoes and witnessed the whole thing- you might feel different- plus losing our other dear friend, who chose chemo- maybe it is just too personal for us.
Maybe if you'd have experienced what I did, when my Mother was almost killed by listening to one of these quack doctors, you'd understand and feel different yourself. Only the intervention of genuine doctors saved her.

Like JM insinuated earlier, you can't base a science on one person's experience.

I prefer Wade's approach. Live healthy and take the best of both approaches.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Josh, amazing how youve become so haughty, cynical & an expert on everything. My pharmicist who is highly respected in the field just explained he was very familiar with the baking soda treatment & does not consider it quackery, has heard of its effectiveness, explained to me how it works, knew which organs its most effective in. I value his opinion over your less than knowledgeable assumptions
Excuse me? IF a pharmacist is really promoting this he is likely going to lose his license if caught. IF he is a community pharmacist, they are unlikely to deal with chemotherapy agents of the process of cancer treatment. That is an unapproved treatment, and he would fall under the same law as the Amish guy in the OP.

I have seen this all before. I live in what became one of the epicenters of Laetrile. One of the compounding pharmacists I know lost his license over this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin

See how quackery works!

J.M.
J.M. I work in the same drugstore as this pharmacist- I was not a 'customer' when I talked with him about it today- I value his opinion as he is highly respected. He seemed to know what he was talking about- explaining how the baking soda would work- and his opinion is that it is not 'quackery' because I asked him directly, if he thought so.
You mention money, and all I can do is compare both our friends who were diagnosed with colon cancer-- one's bills went way over $100,000- and he died- he was so sick from the chemo treatments & weak he could no longer do his very physical job.
Our other friend got so sick he decided to give it up- that is when his onocologist advised him to go to Italy. And it was a fraction of the cost. He was being shown by camera, how both tumors were shrinking smaller & smaller- 8 weeks- gone-

You say Dr. Tullio Simoncini lost his license in 2006 but this article is from 2015, and our friend received the treatment approx 5 years ago- so how can that be? It also says he's been instrumental here in the U.S. helping to start a clinic
Anyway, chemo didn't help Ernie, left his family broke, of course the community helped pitch in $80,000 for his bills-
Sean was 'finished' in 8 weeks, tumors completely gone (that his dr. in Chicago assumed would take his life in 6 to 12 mo) and it's been a good 4 or 5 years without any further treatment and he's thriving, just retired- and doing very well- it's why he would recommend this to others-

If you 'meet' the team here- you can see they are not Amish but Medical professionals- this clinic is in Tempe AZ, these Dr. are licensed and using the soda treatment- if it were me, and I wanted to fight the cancer- I think I would be inclined to go here:
https://natureworksbest.com/

And it is not 'snake oil' being practiced at the cancer center in AZ:
https://natureworksbest.com/dr-tullio-s ... treatment/
and these are professionals:
naturopathic physicians are licensed to practice medicine, and therefore do not work under or over medical doctors, unless they choose to partner together. The naturopathic medical curriculum includes all of the conventional medical doctors' curriculum plus the naturopathic modalities, so there are more than twice as many courses and more than twice as many classroom hours in naturopathic school than in conventional medical school. The way that a naturopathic physician uses baking soda includes in liquid, sterile form and is administered as medicine.


I'm glad they are improving chemotherapy, I am with John Hurt and Wade on this- prevention-

I'm sorry by sharing our friend's testimony it raised such a ruckus- I guess if you would have been in our shoes and witnessed the whole thing- you might feel different- plus losing our other dear friend, who chose chemo- maybe it is just too personal for us.
You think we are immune to trouble. My father in law just died from melanoma. I really feel for the ones who go through their entire fortune on these dubious treatments.

If their results are as they claim, why are they not publishing? These claims are fantastic and I am sure any reputable journal would publish it........if they really had the data to back up their claims. I would be happy if we could do what these people claim, but "where's the beef?"

I have come to the conclusion that this alternative medicine is not based on science, but is actually religion. It is immune to evidence and proof. As such, if you want to believe it, fine. I just pray that no one follows this kind of advice.

Oh, the baking soda king in Italy's case is on appeal. In Italian courts, that could be for years. As the article pointed out, he appears to be treating patients, license or not.

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Josh »

Of concern for me is that believing in things when all evidence points to it not having any natural, scientific basis seems very close to false religious belief.

And if it DOES work, it may be drawing power from a spiritual source that is not good.

The Bible spends a lot of time condemning those who practice darkness, often mixing up herbs, for "healing".
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Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Wade »

RZehr wrote:
Wade wrote:For me when I was all for secular medicine - I was completely irresponsible in letting the doctor take care of me.
When I realized doctors are often wrong and human then I became wreckless in following alternative medicine.

I prefer the middle of the road now and take advantage of the benefits from both.

Preventative care is more enjoyable than reactive care, although physical weakness and death are not avoidable. May God be glorified and all be drawn closer to Him by the recognition of our frailty.
:up: I am quite skeptical of alternative medicine, but I am sure there are some good ones. I simply don't have to time and expertise to sift through them all and figure out which ones are beneficial.
So I always end up going with the more studied conventional medicine when I need some medicine. I tend to believe the controlled studies more than anecdotal evidence and testimony. But I believe our society is over medicated.
Agree with much of what you say.
The only difference in my experience is after years of continued ailments that conventional doctors couldn't fix; I finally had to make time to research. It really gave me a thirst for knowledge that I never had. I believe it was actually very instrumental in wanting to learn about God and to read scripture - and then I became a Christian. :)

Without this experience I am not sure I ever would have made it to the point of believing in things like non-resistance - it doesn't really exist as a practice in churches around here and I am glad I questioned and compared to scripture what was being preached.
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