Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Josh
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Josh » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:42 am

We have antitrust laws and regulations but some groups want less regulation.

Ultimately society eventually breaks down if people value things other than kingdom values and we can't really use law enforcement or regulation to fix this mess.
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Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Wade » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:03 am

temporal1 wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:I imagine that Amish man is feeling persecuted for being a small businessman and he just wants to be left alone to do his own thing which he thinks will never actually hurt anybody.
But here is the thing. If there were no regulations in these areas I am betting that his product would barely see the light of day as there would be tons of large companies doing something similar to what he his doing. In fact the market would probably be so full of these products that people would hardly notice his. Or the alternative may have happened which is just as likely if not more so.

The sheer volume of these products on the market would of already either proved that they do not really work or in some cases have even harmed people and so people may have learned to be really leery of this type of thing.

If you have a natural alternative health product that really is as great as you say it is then go through the regular legal means of marketing it. And if it really does work you will be wealthy beyond your wildest dreams if that is what you dream about. If what you dream about is just helping people you will have the ability to actually help far more people than you do now.
There are no short cuts to success and I am not sure that there should be.
On a side note I wish they would go after some of the MLM health products that are out there with the same amount of diligence.
Running for cover and no I am not sorry for saying it.
i'm not sure anyone is suggesting no regulations?
aside from that, i agree with you, to a degree.

you left out the parts like, those with highly successful/profitable trearments buying out competitors, not to offer better products, but to keep competing products off the market; also, laws tweaked by lobbyists to make things harder for competition; also, politicians personally invested in certain products; and, the power of money to affect medical "science."

recently, my doctor just told me, powerful entities have been buying up rights/ownership of generic drugs/devices in order to increase prices exponentially - the opposite of the notion of generic products. there was a big scandal last summer with epi-pens.

as Wayne stated above, "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."

in my view, Girod's problem revolves around ignorance of the legal system.
the product is likely allowable - provided the required legal hoops are jumped.
i.e., it's more about law than medicine.

as i understand it, those with double degrees in law and medicine are very well paid.


Keep in mind any natural health product can never be tested to the point of approval. There are too many variables within natural remedies. Each plant source can have a different amount of nutrients or toxins for medicinal purposes within depending on how they are grown. No two apples that are grown are exactly alike. And in order to reach certification the substance or product has to fit in very controlled guidelines to meet FDA regulations. Therefore the only products that will ever be approved are only chemically/laboratory made substances. And the fact is, it has been scientifically proven that the effects on someone taking a naturally occurring vitamin/mineral/or whatever compared to a chemically made one, that a scientist cannot detect the difference between the two; has different results...
So anyone interested in a more natural approach is absolutely wasting his time to try and prove that substances from the natural world that God provided for us is FDA worthy. And neither can a natural substance be patented as others can reproduce it easily and therefore no one can become rich from it... However the chemically made ones can be patented and controlled...
I am not trying to say all drugs you buy from the store are bad or that these regulations should be different, but the natural medicines compared to mainstream medicines are very different from one another in many ways.

And for Josh's question about needing a prescription for snake oil:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/busin ... ement.html
The British drug company GlaxoSmithKline said Thursday that it had agreed to pay $3 billion to settle United States government civil and criminal investigations into its sales practices for numerous drugs.

The settlement would be the largest yet in a wave of federal cases against pharmaceutical companies accused of illegal marketing, surpassing the previous record of $2.3 billion paid by Pfizer in 2009. In recent years, drug companies have been prime targets of federal fraud investigations, which have recovered tens of billions of dollars for Medicaid and Medicare.

The cases against GlaxoSmithKline include illegal marketing of Avandia, a diabetes drug that was severely restricted last year after it was linked to heart risks. Federal prosecutors said the company had paid doctors and manipulated medical research to promote the drug....


There is lots more of this going on...
Last time I looked GlaxoSmithKline was producing the majority of vaccines used in Canada. But you should trust them and stay away from snake oils... :?
1 x
"when ye do well,and suffer for it,ye take it patiently,this is acceptable with God..Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example,that ye should follow his steps:Who did no sin..when he suffered,he threatened not;but committed himself"

Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Wade » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:09 am

Josh wrote:Exactly what snake oil requires a prescription?


The most recommended name by doctors for babies:
Johnson & Johnson has agreed to pay more than $2.2 billion in criminal and civil fines to settle accusations that it improperly promoted the antipsychotic drug Risperdal to older adults, children and people with developmental disabilities, the Justice Department said on Monday.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/busin ... -case.html
0 x
"when ye do well,and suffer for it,ye take it patiently,this is acceptable with God..Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example,that ye should follow his steps:Who did no sin..when he suffered,he threatened not;but committed himself"

KingdomBuilder
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby KingdomBuilder » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:24 am

Things that are, naturally, good remedies have a way of getting around. If a product works, word of mouth will do the advertising you can't legally put on a bottle.
For example, many natural (non-synthetic) products can be found at farm supply stores that are geared towards horses, fish, etc. I know many who use these proven-safe (what some may call) "snake oils" to help with all sorts of topical, joint, dental, viral, and muscular problems.
It sounds risky to outsiders, but when you realize the mechanisms by which many of these products work, there's not a cause for worry.
Another hot example would be cider vinegar. Many people make wondrous claims for the stuff, but you don't see cider vinegar bottles lined with claims of curing various illnesses. Yet it's still selling like hot cakes.
1 x
Never a storm can the soul overwhelm,
Jesus the Savior is near

appleman2006
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby appleman2006 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:35 am

Heirbyadoption wrote:
On a side note I wish they would go after some of the MLM health products that are out there with the same amount of diligence.
Clearly you haven't read their quotes, and the doctors listed who endorse each product... 8-) Your wish is a sound principle, imho, although certainly a little general deregulation wouldn't hurt either in many areas.


Not disputing that at all. The line is crossed when the primary reason for regulations becomes to keep bureaucracy employed rather than what may have been the original objective.
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Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Wade » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:59 am

KingdomBuilder wrote:Things that are, naturally, good remedies have a way of getting around. If a product works, word of mouth will do the advertising you can't legally put on a bottle.
For example, many natural (non-synthetic) products can be found at farm supply stores that are geared towards horses, fish, etc. I know many who use these proven-safe (what some may call) "snake oils" to help with all sorts of topical, joint, dental, viral, and muscular problems.
It sounds risky to outsiders, but when you realize the mechanisms by which many of these products work, there's not a cause for worry.
Another hot example would be cider vinegar. Many people make wondrous claims for the stuff, but you don't see cider vinegar bottles lined with claims of curing various illnesses. Yet it's still selling like hot cakes.


I would agree this would be true if our society functioned differently. But often what is overlooked is the source of things. I realize we live in a fallen world. But there are many lifestyle choices we also make that we reap what we sow... And we want an easy fix in our culture... Natural medicine is best fit for a healthy consistent lifestyle and mainstream medicine for quick fixes of big problems but not lasting unless other lifestyle changes are made. This is my opinion and is not a hard and fast rule.
If you have ever heard of Dr. Weston Price he was a dentist who went out into all the indigenous cultures he could find at around 1930 that were not influenced by Western culture and all our heavily processed foods. The one I like much and I think they may have been Anabaptist's was people he found in the Swiss Alps that had average live spans over 100 years old, and I think I recall about 1 cavity on average for there entire lifetime. They never had or used toothpaste or toothbrushes... So really the lack toothpaste and toothbrushes and brushing properly is not the cause of cavities - something else is... :idea:
2 x
"when ye do well,and suffer for it,ye take it patiently,this is acceptable with God..Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example,that ye should follow his steps:Who did no sin..when he suffered,he threatened not;but committed himself"

appleman2006
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby appleman2006 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:14 am

I knew I should of run faster and harder. :) And to stop running now and to turn around and answer is probably really stupid but here goes anyway.

In case I implied otherwise I am not against natural remedies that work. What I am against is when claims are made that are totally false. I can say that eating apples every day is good for most people. What I cannot say is that they will keep you from ever getting sick.

There are very good reasons why making health claims is so heavily regulated. The damage that can and does occur when people are sent down the wrong rabbit hole in search of a cure is very real and I have heard doctors and nurses lament over and over how devastating it is to have a patient come to them as a last resort after they have tried every other means when if they had come earlier there chances of a cure would of been much higher.

You are also aware I am sure that all medication is simply a bunch of natural things which are mixed together to form the desired drug or effect. Sometimes it is only a couple of ingredients. More often it is many things mixed together. And after many millions of dollars in research they figure out a chemical or procedure that works. And the only way they get consistency is to test each of the products going into the mixture to ensure that the right and needed properties are there. I disagree that you could not do the same with one single natural product. Often with enough testing and sorting out you could get a consistent product but it would add tremendously to the cost of the product which would in fact make them not as attractive.
In a way though you defeat your own argument when you state that natural products are not consistent. If that is true than it is because they do not spend the time and money needed to test the properties properly which means they can in no way guarantee the product or make the very claims they want to claim it does.

And I am sorry. To argue that you could not make money selling a natural product that works and has been properly approved makes no sense at all to me.
Even many so called natural medicines at this point have several ingredients mixed together. Mixing plants and minerals together for medicinal purposes is almost as old as time itself. Thankfully the process is a lot more scientific today due to the fact that we are able to break down an individual product's properties much more precisely than in previous times.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby KingdomBuilder » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:30 am

Wade wrote:They never had or used toothpaste or toothbrushes... So really the lack toothpaste and toothbrushes and brushing properly is not the cause of cavities - something else is... :idea:


Well of course. Toothbrushes and toothpaste have not been the norm for the majority of human history. The high sugar, starchy diet (again, relatively new) paired with the fact that we like our teeth to be so close together (orthodontics) is perfect for cavities. Spaced out teeth don't trap food the same way tight gaps do.
1 x
Never a storm can the soul overwhelm,
Jesus the Savior is near

Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Wade » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:43 am

I'll try one more time to try and get something across as it seems I have been misunderstood.
0 x
"when ye do well,and suffer for it,ye take it patiently,this is acceptable with God..Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example,that ye should follow his steps:Who did no sin..when he suffered,he threatened not;but committed himself"

Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Postby Wade » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:33 pm

Imagine a poor person that is diligent in trying to care for himself and his family. However they do have support in time of need from secular sources.
Now imagine another group rejects that help but has more available resources to take care of themselves being a group. "God has provided," they say.
Eventually health issues come up with children having cavities and abscess teeth in the group but it is okay they pay for it and are "responsible."(They have things like a big jar of candy for the children in the school on the teachers desk.) Meanwhile the other family doesn't have these problems, although they still don't have perfect health by any means but they pray to God and try to be responsible in taking care before problems by proving all things looking for truth and trying to be wise stewards even though limited.

One of the leaders of the group finally approaches the poor man and says that since he is signed up to receive help if he needs it that he is really concerned that the poor man might be irresponsible by relying on the same system he is using but is different because he isn't paying for it by himself.

There is something deeper here I am trying to expose...


This is a true story and I'll let you guess who the newcomer poor family was with health insurance attending an ultra-conservative church...
0 x
"when ye do well,and suffer for it,ye take it patiently,this is acceptable with God..Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example,that ye should follow his steps:Who did no sin..when he suffered,he threatened not;but committed himself"


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