Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

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JohnHurt
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by JohnHurt »

mike wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:Samuel Girod is going to prison for 6 years for selling chickweed salve.

http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/crim ... 31869.html
I am very sorry that it has come to this.

The article quotes a supporter as saying, "He is being punished for being stubborn." I think that sums up the problem. It is not exactly true that he is going to prison for selling chickweed salve.
Judge Reeves said Girod brought the trouble on himself “because he steadfastly refused to follow the law.”

To Girod, Reeves said, “You refused to follow anyone but yourself.”
The real problem was not chickweed salve. You can buy chickweed salve all the time. It's for sale in all kinds of forms, on Amazon and many other places. The problem was that Girod did not follow the law, and did not believe it applied to him.
In documents filed June 19, Girod argued that the charges in the indictment “do not apply to me.”

“I am not a creation of state/government, as such I am not within its jurisdiction,” Girod wrote. He added later: “The proceedings of the ‘United States District Court’ cannot be applied within the jurisdiction of the ‘State of Kentucky.’”
It is an unfortunate outcome but not unexpected. If I refuse to comply with federal and state laws in how I conduct my business, the same thing will happen to me. No one should expect otherwise.
Amen. He did bring it on himself. But 30 days in jail for being dumb and stubborn would probably teach him a lesson.
And 6 years in jail is a warning to the rest of us. That is what is ridiculous. The judge is more stubborn than Mr. Girod.
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mike
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

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JohnHurt wrote:6 years in federal prison, that is really incredible. I don't think this is over yet. If he could appeal with a real defense attorney in another venue, I am certain he would at least get a suspended sentence.

No one deserves 6 years in prison for making salve, 6 months in jail would break most of us.
You're right, it is an incredible sentence, but in your own words, "His real crime was to challenge the jurisdiction of the FDA and a Federal Court in MO over a citizen of the State of Kentucky."

He wasn't jailed six years just for making salve. It's not a crime to make salve.

He was more than welcome to get an attorney, who would probably have given a much better defense than "the rules don't apply to me." But he didn't. It's a bit late now to get one.

I would not call what has happened injustice. I would call it justice according to the law. Whether the law is what I wish it would be is beside the point.

I am very sorry for this man and his family, and I believe in showing compassion to them whether I agree with what he has done or not. His family in a sense is fatherless for six years, and I don't doubt that the family will need financial support. We should be willing to help them.
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mike
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by mike »

JohnHurt wrote:Amen. He did bring it on himself. But 30 days in jail for being dumb and stubborn would probably teach him a lesson.
And 6 years in jail is a warning to the rest of us. That is what is ridiculous. The judge is more stubborn than Mr. Girod.
I disagree. It's the law that is a stubborn thing. He didn't get sentenced for being dumb and stubborn (which is not a crime). He was sentenced “because he steadfastly refused to follow the law" (the Judge said that).

If I get stopped for speeding and lose my appeal, I can't accuse the judge of being more stubborn than I am.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Joy »

RZehr wrote: Also, I've been told that legally there is a certain percentage (10%?) you can add water to commercial honey and still label it 100% pure honey.
I used to have hives as a hobby.
How could water be added without fermenting the honey?
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by ken_sylvania »

JohnHurt wrote:He did bring it on himself. But 30 days in jail for being dumb and stubborn would probably teach him a lesson.
And 6 years in jail is a warning to the rest of us. That is what is ridiculous. The judge is more stubborn than Mr. Girod.
He didn't seem to have learned his lesson during his first 30 days in jail. Have you read the threatening letters he sent to the judge and to the FDA? "Samuel, House of Girod," as he signs himself, has repeatedly defied the lawful authorities. I do feel sorry for him, but really, he got exactly what he asked for.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by ken_sylvania »

RZehr wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:Most commercial honey you buy in the store is made by bees eating sugar water, with no real pollen in it. "Local honey" that you can buy from a beekeeper in your area is simply amazing for allergies.
John
Would you be willing to provide your source for this?
I don't believe this is completely accurate. The commercial bees may have to live on sugar water part of the year, which may not be best for the bees. But that is because their honey, which is made from pollen, is harvested and sold to us. Them eating sugar water doesn't effect the honey. It probably does affect their health.
But I find it plausible that local honey might have local pollen allergy benefits which the monoculture almond and canola honey may not have.
Also, I've been told that legally there is a certain percentage (10%?) you can add water to commercial honey and still label it 100% pure honey.
I used to have hives as a hobby.
Much "commercial honey" is highly filtered, which removes much or all of the pollen along with any other impurities. This provides a clearer product which is more resistant to crystallization. A small-time beekeeper is less likely to highly filter his honey.

According to my beekeeper brother, the commercial beekeepers who move their hives around the country following the almond, buckwheat, and canola blooms are less likely to have to feed sugar water to their bees than those who keep their hives stationary year-round. Those who don't move their hives sometimes need to fill in with sugar water when there is nothing blooming in the area. The bees don't make honey from sugar water though. Just keeps them from starving.

RZehr, did your bees actually make honey from pollen? :shock: The bees here in PA don't seem to have much use for pollen other than making it into bee bread, which they feed to their larvae. Then they collect nectar and make that into honey.

FDA requires that any additives to honey be included in the label. It may be possible to add water and still label as pure honey, but I don't believe it would be legal...
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

mike wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:6 years in federal prison, that is really incredible. I don't think this is over yet. If he could appeal with a real defense attorney in another venue, I am certain he would at least get a suspended sentence.

No one deserves 6 years in prison for making salve, 6 months in jail would break most of us.
You're right, it is an incredible sentence, but in your own words, "His real crime was to challenge the jurisdiction of the FDA and a Federal Court in MO over a citizen of the State of Kentucky."

He wasn't jailed six years just for making salve. It's not a crime to make salve.

He was more than welcome to get an attorney, who would probably have given a much better defense than "the rules don't apply to me." But he didn't. It's a bit late now to get one.

I would not call what has happened injustice. I would call it justice according to the law. Whether the law is what I wish it would be is beside the point.

I am very sorry for this man and his family, and I believe in showing compassion to them whether I agree with what he has done or not. His family in a sense is fatherless for six years, and I don't doubt that the family will need financial support. We should be willing to help them.
The stuff I am reading in the articles about this guy seems to indicate he has picked up at least some of his views from the "Sovereign Citizen Movement."

For an explanation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign ... n_movement

There are a few of there in Maryland where I am from. They have all kinds of bazaar legal theories such as "All lawyers have forfeited their citizenship by taking a "title of nobility" when they became a lawyer," hence all judges as well. They base this on a failed constitutional amendment. (The titles of Nobility amendment)

If corts get a whiff of this they tend to throw the book at the user. I hope this does not become common among Amish, as it will go very poorly for them. The whole idea of rejecting government authority is also thoroughly unBiblical.

J.M.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by JohnHurt »

Samuel is not a Sovereign Citizen. He is Amish.

No one was injured by Samuel's products.

Samuel's products were tested for drugs, and no drugs were found in them. This puts Samuel's products outside the scope of the FDA.

So no crime was committed, other than Samuel would not recognize the jurisdiction of an agency that did not have jurisdiction.

Here are the notes from the sentencing:
http://www.kyfreepress.com/2017/07/repo ... entencing/

and notes on the indictment itself:
http://www.kyfreepress.com/2017/01/fda- ... ndictment/
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

JohnHurt wrote:Samuel is not a Sovereign Citizen. He is Amish.

No one was injured by Samuel's products.

Samuel's products were tested for drugs, and no drugs were found in them. This puts Samuel's products outside the scope of the FDA.

So no crime was committed, other than Samuel would not recognize the jurisdiction of an agency that did not have jurisdiction.

Here are the notes from the sentencing:
http://www.kyfreepress.com/2017/07/repo ... entencing/

and notes on the indictment itself:
http://www.kyfreepress.com/2017/01/fda- ... ndictment/
John:

Did you read the stuff you attached?

""The federal prosecutor, Kate Smith, was given an opportunity to explain why the state wants a harsh sentence and she did not pass on the opportunity. She asked for a fine of $25,000 as well as jail time, specifically citing Sam’s “Sovereign Citizen” claims and his refusal to admit guilt. The judge made similar comments throughout the sentencing.""

This is from the notes on the sentencing from above.

J.M.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Josh »

JohnHurt wrote:Samuel's products were tested for drugs, and no drugs were found in them. This puts Samuel's products outside the scope of the FDA.

So no crime was committed, other than Samuel would not recognize the jurisdiction of an agency that did not have jurisdiction.
This is the definition of a "drug" in legal terms:
A drug is defined as: A substance recognized by an official pharmacopoeia or formulary. A substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease. A substance (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body.
Girod made health claims that his chickweed salve can cure diseases; he is claiming it is a "drug" according to that definition. We have laws about the purity and effectiveness of drugs, and Girod chose not to do anything to prove the purity or effectiveness of what he was selling.

Of course, one can choose to be completely, utterly, anti-establishment about absolutely everything, but in my experience, that just shows a rebellious attitude at best or a significant mental problem at worse.
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