Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Bootstrap »

ken_sylvania wrote:Could dowsing be a miracle, given to certain men by the devil, the father of lies? The testimonies of men who were formerly involved in this type of witchcraft who lost their "abilities" after turning their lives over to God makes me skeptical that dowsing is "of God."
Where could I find such testimonies?
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote: Again- these 'professional' doctors are not quacks but I realize there are what would be called quacks out there- but again- these naturopathics have the same education as conventional doctors (so they would not be quacks) PLUS more:

naturopathic physicians are licensed to practice medicine, and therefore do not work under or over medical doctors, unless they choose to partner together. The naturopathic medical curriculum includes all of the conventional medical doctors' curriculum plus the naturopathic modalities, so there are more than twice as many courses and more than twice as many classroom hours in naturopathic school than in conventional medical school. The way that a naturopathic physician uses baking soda includes in liquid, sterile form and is administered as medicine.
This is a bit misleading here. While it seems to include a large amount of classroom time, I would say their clinical education seems to be a small portion of the program. There are not many of the clinical courses found in a med school, like radiology, internal medicine, emergency medicine and surgery. All of their clinical experience seems to be in clinics, none of it seems to be in an inpatient setting. I used Bystar college as an example.

It also fails to make note that for a medical doctor, the end of med school means they are halfway through their clinical training. After medical school there is a three to seven year residency. These practitioners seem to start right out of school.

I would not let a med school grad treat myself or my family without supervision until he has completed his first postgraduate year. Nor would any institution allow this.

Also note that they only seem have prescribing privileges in two states, Washington and Arizona. What they are permitted to do seems more like this in the other states I checked (I use my home state as an example):

(From the Maryland Naturopathic Doctor'e Ass. website)

What will be the scope of practice for NDs in Maryland?

Order and perform physical and laboratory examinations, including phlebotomy, laboratory tests, orificial examinations, EKGs, and physiological function tests
Order diagnostic imaging studies and interpret the reports of the studies
Dispense and order natural medicines (foods, vitamins, enzymes, botanicals, homeopathics, etc. )
Hydrotherapy
Electromagnetic energy
Therapeutic exercise for basic services
Nutrition and health counseling
Naturopathic musculoskeletal mobilization

Will NDs be permitted to prescribe pharmaceuticals under the current law?
No. The current law does not permit NDs to prescribe any pharmaceutical drugs. However, the bill does require the creation of a Naturopathic Formulary Committee that will outline a proposed formulary that includes pharmaceutical drugs. This proposed formulary will then need to be adopted by the Maryland General Assembly in order to be part of the naturopathic scope of practice.

Will NDs be primary care providers under the new law?
NDs will not be licensed as primary care providers under this law.

So, as you can likely see, they have a very limited scope of practice in most states. This looks more like a Chiropractor than an MD.

IF you want someone with this lack of training and experience feel free. But I really feel the need to insure that all who read this know the difference. They do not have all of the training of a medical doctor, that is for certain.

J.M.

(Who is really to busy with the real world to keep looking all this stuff up)
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

mike wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Josh wrote:Iridology is straight up witchcraft and has absolutely no basis in any kind of fact.

If you want to choose to believe in weird, fringe stuff as your healer - fine - just stop and ask yourself why you are so committed to believing in these things.
Yeah, just add Powowing, water witching, black boxes and the gang is all here.

I don't get it either. I have never even heard of this sort of stuff from mennonites in my church or conference. Of note, the principle advocates of this are outside of conventional anabaptist circles. Could this stuff have been more or less stamped out within the conservative mennonite church, but remains outside?

J.M.
I would guess these practices are more common in Amish and Mennonite groups that are more plain/conservative than your church, especially in old orders.
Yes, the only "Old Order" group I have a lot of contact with is the Old Order River Brethren, and I could not fathom any of them getting into this kind of stuff.

In my conference newsletter this month, there appeared an article from one of our young ladies who had just finished nursing school, explaining the ins and outs of getting a nursing degree. One of the daughters of my now retired bishop is an RN. My wife (Also an RN) loved it. No problems with health careers here.

J.M.
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Valerie
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Will NDs be primary care providers under the new law?
NDs will not be licensed as primary care providers under this law.

So, as you can likely see, they have a very limited scope of practice in most states. This looks more like a Chiropractor than an MD.

IF you want someone with this lack of training and experience feel free. But I really feel the need to insure that all who read this know the difference. They do not have all of the training of a medical doctor, that is for certain.

J.M.

(Who is really to busy with the real world to keep looking all this stuff up)
The people who live and are suffering in the real world with some diseases or affects from 'approved' meds- are turning to NDs for a reason- not dismissing all conventional doctors or medicines either- but some people are not helped by them for 'some' things-

Two of the ND's in my own town USED TO BE physicians in our town, one worked in our hospital 14 years- so he has the education and the experience & has turned to alternative ways to help those suffering in the real world too JM- they at this point are not really concerned about Big Pharma being their god.
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Wade
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Wade »

Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote: Will NDs be primary care providers under the new law?
NDs will not be licensed as primary care providers under this law.

So, as you can likely see, they have a very limited scope of practice in most states. This looks more like a Chiropractor than an MD.

IF you want someone with this lack of training and experience feel free. But I really feel the need to insure that all who read this know the difference. They do not have all of the training of a medical doctor, that is for certain.

J.M.

(Who is really to busy with the real world to keep looking all this stuff up)
The people who live and are suffering in the real world with some diseases or affects from 'approved' meds- are turning to NDs for a reason- not dismissing all conventional doctors or medicines either- but some people are not helped by them for 'some' things-

Two of the ND's in my own town USED TO BE physicians in our town, one worked in our hospital 14 years- so he has the education and the experience & has turned to alternative ways to help those suffering in the real world too JM- they at this point are not really concerned about Big Pharma being their god.
Very true.
Worked with a man with Parkinson disease. He was fifty at the time and unfortunately his wife was a staunch nurse and I think both daughters were in nursing school.
He finally couldn't work anymore and was only allowed to take drugs...
Once he snuck to someone's house to use a machine that just massaged his feet. It helped him feel much better, but he never went again because if his wife found out there would be wrath...
People can make anything their god and close their eyes to simple helpful things that have nothing to do with following evil. It is rather when we make anything our god that shouldn't be that we are doing evil and this even happens with "good" or "right" things...
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by ken_sylvania »

Bootstrap wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:Could dowsing be a miracle, given to certain men by the devil, the father of lies? The testimonies of men who were formerly involved in this type of witchcraft who lost their "abilities" after turning their lives over to God makes me skeptical that dowsing is "of God."
Where could I find such testimonies?
I believe I've read a few such accounts published in the "Christian Example" periodical during the late 1980's/early 1990's.
I know a man in Lancaster Co. PA who was working on a barn roof and observed a man preparing to "smell water" nearby. He prayed earnestly that God would overrule. The dowser informed him later that he didn't understand why the dowsing didn't work for him that day.
I'm fully aware that my "evidence" is purely anecdotal, and am not prepared to condemn every man who dowses, however I am wary of the practice.
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Biblical Anabaptist
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

If I remember the story correctly which was told me, when they were building a Christian school in our area they had a man "smell for water". After drilling several dry holes the building committee went to the site and prayed. After the prayer one of the men pitched his hat and they drilled at that spot and found adequate water.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Soloist »

for the record, there are people that like the medical system but believe in corruption being present. These said people (myself included) disavow any form of witchcraft ranging from water-witching to adding one drop of medication to 1000s of gallons of water and calling it a miracle drug. That being said, there are medical procedures that are bad both in the past and present. for me there are vaccines I cannot in good faith use and some drugs (particular in mental health) that do more harm then good and the side effects are often the same thing you are trying to fix.
I would argue that unless you've done extensive research into the medical condition you are not more knowledgeable then the doctor, that being said... I've had a doctor diagnose me based off a Wikipedia article... The thing he diagnosed me with may or may not be right, there really is no way to know without a biopsy.
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Soloist wrote:for the record, there are people that like the medical system but believe in corruption being present. These said people (myself included) disavow any form of witchcraft ranging from water-witching to adding one drop of medication to 1000s of gallons of water and calling it a miracle drug.
They call that homeopathy.

Don't get me started on drug reps. I have had more than one try to take me for a ride, I am to a point that anytime one of them starts to talk about an "off label use" I get up and walk out of the room. One that I knew through a Bible study that my wife and I attended years ago had the principle qualification of having been a cheerleader. Was an El. Ed. major in college.

I wish we had a British style system that gets most of the corrupt practices out of it.

I truly believe that those I work with on the medical side of things are honest and honorable people.

J.M.
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Soloist
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Re: Amish Salve-maker in Jail, Facing Federal Prison

Post by Soloist »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Don't get me started on drug reps. I have had more than one try to take me for a ride, I am to a point that anytime one of them starts to talk about an "off label use" I get up and walk out of the room. One that I knew through a Bible study that my wife and I attended years ago had the principle qualification of having been a cheerleader. Was an El. Ed. major in college.

I wish we had a British style system that gets most of the corrupt practices out of it.

I truly believe that those I work with on the medical side of things are honest and honorable people.

J.M.
I noted when I worked in my clinic that the drug/equipment reps didn't really focus on the doctors as much anymore, they work harder on buddying up to the clinic managers or whoever orders supplies. They have more pull then I wish they did... I remember our clinic manager being influenced about a particular stone basket and he got it into the doctor's hands. Of course it was a decent basket but it costs 3 times more per each one.
Another big scam I saw was the stupid hand assisted port... We put it in and lo and behold the doc would end up deciding open was better. Lots of those expired in our clinic.

A good example I've wrote numerous papers on would be prostate cancer and breast cancer.... So much misinformation out there and so many cure alls for those cancers that do nothing or increase your risk of cancer.
For the record, if anyone has prostate cancer... I've very well informed on it and I've been in all stages of management of prostate cancer and I can tell you why your doctor said what he did. That being said, I cannot give medical advice.
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