Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Valerie
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby Valerie » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:27 am

Dan Z wrote:Just to get us on the same page...Who was I calling "an evil man doing an evil act"?

In any case Valerie, My concern all along has been when rulers are a terror not to the evil doer, but to the innocent or even to good conduct. I don't think Paul had In mind a defense of Rome's Feeding Christians to the lions for example.This is obviously outside of the ordination spoken of in Romans.


I understand- and maybe I misunderstood the implication by Mike-
So my question would be-
Could this "minister of God exercising God's wrath on evil doers" be a Christian if he is doing what God would do? If this is what God asks of him? Would Anabaptists always assume he could not be a Christian then?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby ken_sylvania » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:27 am

Valerie wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Just to get us on the same page...Who was I calling "an evil man doing an evil act"?

In any case Valerie, My concern all along has been when rulers are a terror not to the evil doer, but to the innocent or even to good conduct. I don't think Paul had In mind a defense of Rome's Feeding Christians to the lions for example.This is obviously outside of the ordination spoken of in Romans.


I understand- and maybe I misunderstood the implication by Mike-
So my question would be-
Could this "minister of God exercising God's wrath on evil doers" be a Christian if he is doing what God would do? If this is what God asks of him? Would Anabaptists always assume he could not be a Christian then?


Is there a difference between doing what God would do and doing what Christ would do?

In the OT, God used the evil nations surrounding Israel to punish Israel for her evil ways. But then God turned around and punished these same surrounding nations for their treatment of Israel. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that He could be glorified when He punished Pharaoh and the Egyptians for rising up against Him. Based on this I would say that God's raising up of an evil ruler to accomplish His will does not excuse that evil ruler from God's punishment.

In general, if a government leader professes Christianity, I think most Conservative Anabaptists would simply say that they will leave that to God to judge. But Conservative Anabaptists would say that we see no way to reconcile the clear teachings of Christ with the involvements of earthly government.
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Valerie
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby Valerie » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:09 am

ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Just to get us on the same page...Who was I calling "an evil man doing an evil act"?

In any case Valerie, My concern all along has been when rulers are a terror not to the evil doer, but to the innocent or even to good conduct. I don't think Paul had In mind a defense of Rome's Feeding Christians to the lions for example.This is obviously outside of the ordination spoken of in Romans.


I understand- and maybe I misunderstood the implication by Mike-
So my question would be-
Could this "minister of God exercising God's wrath on evil doers" be a Christian if he is doing what God would do? If this is what God asks of him? Would Anabaptists always assume he could not be a Christian then?


Is there a difference between doing what God would do and doing what Christ would do?

In the OT, God used the evil nations surrounding Israel to punish Israel for her evil ways. But then God turned around and punished these same surrounding nations for their treatment of Israel. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that He could be glorified when He punished Pharaoh and the Egyptians for rising up against Him. Based on this I would say that God's raising up of an evil ruler to accomplish His will does not excuse that evil ruler from God's punishment.

In general, if a government leader professes Christianity, I think most Conservative Anabaptists would simply say that they will leave that to God to judge. But Conservative Anabaptists would say that we see no way to reconcile the clear teachings of Christ with the involvements of earthly government.


Jesus is God, and a good read through the Book of Revelations will show you how Christ will deal with the nations in the end- Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever- He was with God in the beginning- the word "Wrath" is used in the New Testament and apparently God still exercises, even according to Romans 13, uses men to exercise His own wrath against evil.

I see what you are saying regarding Anabaptists, it's a few 'little' differences I see that has kept us from fully embracing it- but I still appreciate you all.

Isaiah 60:3
“And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”
Revelation 21:24
“And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.”

I have always seen Christ as inviting those He places in ruling authorities, as being able to come to salvation as well-
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Dan Z
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby Dan Z » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:58 am

When considering the will of God, or what he ordains, there does seem to be a difference between his permissive will (that which he allows as a result of the fallen nature of mankind - like temporal governments to keep relative order) and his perfect will (that which he desires of us - like that we as his followers be conformed to the image and likeness of His son).
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lesterb
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby lesterb » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:41 pm

Dan Z wrote:
Josh wrote:This is a point my liberal brethren should consider - if conservative and plain Anabaptists all started voting en masse, you'd have a sizable chunk of new solidly Republican voters in Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin - which are key swing states.


The fact that this is obvious to all of us tells me that many (most?) plain people are in the habit of opining quite openly about politics (if not voting) - and are as deeply vested in partisan ideologies as their liberal counterparts are.

And that's saddens me.

It's hard to have knowledge without opinion. I feel that a kingdom Christian can keep up with what is going on around him, partly at least so that he can communicate knowledgeably with those around him. Since we are human, we tend to have an opinion about what is going on. Those opinions differ. I suppose most people who have been on MD and MN know that Appleman and I know each other, and get along fairly well, though separated by several thousand miles at this point. Most of those same people also know that he and I differ a bit on things like capitalism and socialism. It makes for a real interesting evening when we get together. Not just about politics, but about lots of other things.

I wouldn't call that partisanship.

In fact, I get more worried when people aren't interested enough to even know what is going on in the world around them. It seems like a bad sign to me, especially since too often the same disinterest carries over to spiritual things. That isn't always the case, but too often it is. Get the same people talking about farming or hockey, or their business, then they really fire up.

I still feel that our greatest influence in the areas this thread is supposed to be about is with our neighbors and co-workers -- the people who can see if our lives line up with what we are saying.
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When a man's ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. (Pro 16:7 ESV)

RZehr
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby RZehr » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:59 pm

Josh wrote:This is a point my liberal brethren should consider - if conservative and plain Anabaptists all started voting en masse, you'd have a sizable chunk of new solidly Republican voters in Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin - which are key swing states.


I think it would depend what the impetus to begin voting is for these people.
My observation/supposition is that if/when a conservative Mennonite decides to vote as an individual, they most often vote conservative/Republican.
But when a conservative Mennonite church decides as a church that voting is acceptable, they most often vote liberal/Democrat.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:51 pm

RZehr wrote:My observation/supposition is that if/when a conservative Mennonite decides to vote as an individual, they most often vote conservative/Republican.
But when a conservative Mennonite church decides as a church that voting is acceptable, they most often vote liberal/Democrat.


Why do you think this is? I gather you've seen this happen more than once?
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?

Hats Off
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby Hats Off » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:21 pm

From what I have seen lately of US politics, if I were to vote, i would probably vote Democratic. I don't like guns, I have never hunted. It seems to me the Republican leaders are way too macho; to red neck; too immoderate. I would hardly attempt to tell a Republican politician why I thought he was wrong, but it just feels as though the Democrat would welcome a discussion. But then, I am an Anabaptist, non-resistant Canadian, eh?
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MaxPC
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Re: Justice & the Sanctity of Life - Applied

Postby MaxPC » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:42 pm

Hats Off wrote:From what I have seen lately of US politics, if I were to vote, i would probably vote Democratic. I don't like guns, I have never hunted. It seems to me the Republican leaders are way too macho; to red neck; too immoderate. I would hardly attempt to tell a Republican politician why I thought he was wrong, but it just feels as though the Democrat would welcome a discussion. But then, I am an Anabaptist, non-resistant Canadian, eh?

Interesting POV, Hats Off.
How do you feel about the Democrats' platform that supports and forces the legalization of homosexual lifestyles & marriage; abortion; killing of the disabled and elderly who are no longer able to care for themselves; and making it mandatory that males dressed as women can share the same bathroom as your daughters and wife? All of these issues were pushed into law under the Democrat-controlled Congress and/or states.
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