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Valerie wrote:

Jazman wrote:

Robert wrote: I am not saying everything western culture does it right, but there is a core respect for life that does drive it.

Maybe more recently, but I'm not sure history shows that. I'll retract if a credible historian says no, but I'd bet "christian" Western Civ has slaughtered as many or more than non-Western Civ has...

It's baffling to me then, why SO many countries want to find refuge in the U.S. if we are such a terrible slaughtering people. You'd think if we had that reputation, we wouldn't have countless foreign countries seeking to live here- or maybe that doesn't matter to them- how did we become such a melting pot, and continue to be one? What is so attractive about living in the U.S. to so many? Why did Anabaptists seek refuge here if we didn't have a core respect for life? Makes no sense.
RECENTLY we do not have a core respect for life when you look at the abortion statistics.

Let me clarify - when I say Western Civ, I'm including about every "judeo-christian" entity since Constantine... so the brutal, conquering Roman Empire fits, the Holy Roman Empire, the British Empire and its colonialism, the Spanish Empire and its colonialism, Christopher Columbus and his massacres of natives, the European religious wars, WW!, WWII, USA nuking Japan...etc etc. All done by claiming "christians", some by very religious, practising "christians". Again, I concede that more recently Western Civ may not be as murderous...and maybe america too. But historically I think Robert's assertion for a "core respect for life" falters. But don't take this as an attempt to exonerate/whitewash Islam. They're certainly struggling with something heinous, but considering our (Western Civ) history, I actually think there's some hope for the Islamic world. There have been times in Western Civ that the slaughtering parties got to such a point of weariness, that they stopped and signed truces and treaties, etc. I think a lot of Muslim refugees are at that point. That's why they're trying to come Here!
Here's why I responded to Robert the way I did; I'm just weary of the white, European judeo-christian ivory tower/pedestal we insist on clambering up onto. I think it distorts our capacity to empathize, understand and love as Christ would have us do. I think it puffs up our egos and makes us feel better about ourselves than maybe we should. I think it gives us excuses and justifications for things that maybe God despises?

Jazman wrote:I'm just weary of the white, European judeo-christian ivory tower/pedestal we insist on clambering up onto. I think it distorts our capacity to empathize, understand and love as Christ would have us do.

If you ever had to live in some of the other places around the world, it might give a differing impression.

The US and western culture is not innocent of wrong at all. I would say it does more right then wrong, but has its own dark areas. Not trying to white wash it, but not condemning it to evil because of some of the negatives.

Judeo-Christian culture is rooted in Biblical concepts of loving others as ourself. While Christians stumble and have missed the mark often, the teachings of Jesus brings us back to center.

The teachings of Muhammad teach what the "radicals" are doing right now.

And here are some lists of deaths from genocide and war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... death_toll

I see very little of the US in causing a lot of these numbers.

I skimmed this long thread and I will give my non-Christian view here. I am in the middle of reading the Quran, I have read several books on Islam, and I have been attending my local mosque weekly for a while now to learn more about Islam.

My first suggestion is that anyone who wants to understand a little about Islam should visit their local mosque and talk to a religious leader there. Islam doesn't have a formal priesthood, but in practical terms it does have religious leaders who are comparable to priests in catholicism and orthodoxy. And like in these religions, the average Muslims tend not to know very much. So to understand the religion, you need to speak to a religious leader.

Islam today is in a similar state to Catholicism around the time of Thomas Aquinas. In fact I would say that Islam has more in common with medieval Christianity than modern Christianity does. But in terms of doctrine, Islam is fundamentally more tolerant of other religions than Christianity is. Islam has a concept called "dhimmi" which means that other religions living under Muslim rule are supposed to be self-governing and most of sharia law does not apply to them.

Early America was (in my opinion) the best Christian country in history with very strong religious freedom. But modern America is something completely different. It is a strange mix of secularism and corrupt Christianity, and seems to have little respect for religious freedom. Religions are still protected by old American laws and by the constitution, but the trend is in the wrong direction and I expect that religious freedom will decline.

Given current trends, Western countries will either become degenerate third-world countries as morality continues to decline, or they will become Islamic. I am not sure which is better, but I tend to side with Islam.

appleman2006 wrote: Time will reveal a lot I assume. In the meantime we are called to love all.

On a completely unrelated note
seeing the amount of people in your country that suddenly believe in open [borders] perhaps there is hope that someday I actually could get a green card. Never thought it would happen.

POTUS, a hop-skip-jump away.

Robert wrote:

Szdfan wrote:Prime-time cable news shows virtually ignored Muslim voices when they hosted guests to discuss the fallout from President Donald Trump’s Muslim ban

I immediately consider this very biased since it says "Muslin" ban.

The EO was not a Muslin ban but a ban of 7 countries, who were predominantly Muslim but not completely. It banned the Christian Syrians also.

I have heard multiple Muslims speak about this on the news I watch. Some for and against it.

I wonder how many Westerners the Iran news used when it banned all US refugees.

has anyone read the EO? is it available to the public?

Franklin wrote:I skimmed this long thread and I will give my non-Christian view here. I am in the middle of reading the Quran, I have read several books on Islam, and I have been attending my local mosque weekly for a while now to learn more about Islam.

My first suggestion is that anyone who wants to understand a little about Islam should visit their local mosque and talk to a religious leader there. Islam doesn't have a formal priesthood, but in practical terms it does have religious leaders who are comparable to priests in catholicism and orthodoxy. And like in these religions, the average Muslims tend not to know very much. So to understand the religion, you need to speak to a religious leader.

Islam today is in a similar state to Catholicism around the time of Thomas Aquinas. In fact I would say that Islam has more in common with medieval Christianity than modern Christianity does. But in terms of doctrine, Islam is fundamentally more tolerant of other religions than Christianity is. Islam has a concept called "dhimmi" which means that other religions living under Muslim rule are supposed to be self-governing and most of sharia law does not apply to them.

Early America was (in my opinion) the best Christian country in history with very strong religious freedom. But modern America is something completely different. It is a strange mix of secularism and corrupt Christianity, and seems to have little respect for religious freedom. Religions are still protected by old American laws and by the constitution, but the trend is in the wrong direction and I expect that religious freedom will decline.

Given current trends, Western countries will either become degenerate third-world countries as morality continues to decline, or they will become Islamic. I am not sure which is better, but I tend to side with Islam.

Franklin, as the Word of God teaches, if one does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within, they are unable to discern truth from error- this is why many people could be led into Islam, or into Mormonism- (their book is "The Book of the Mormon"). In the Last Days it is prophesied they will no longer endure 'sound doctrine'- it is interesting that Mosques are going world wide-
I would not assume that speaking with a leader in a mosque, no matter how high up he is, will tell you ALL. It is the same in Mormonism. One of my favorite interviews between a 'former' Jew, and a 'former' Palestinian Muslim is how they both came to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. The former Muslim man wanted to know TRUTH. That is what he was interested in. He spent an entire three years seeking- studying both the Qur'an and the Holy Bible- eventually our Loving Father, Son & Holy Spirit confirmed in his heart the truth in Christ Jesus and he left Islam for Christianity- part of what you said is almost in agreement with Biblical prophesy- I see people turning to Islam- this does not surprise me as Jesus said in Luke 18:8 "When the Son of Man returns, will He indeed find faith in all the earth?" It was prophesied about the falling away, Apostasy of THE Faith, once for all, delivered to the saints-

This might be a good book to read, I heard one of the authors, former Muslim speak- I am sure any leader in a Mosque well tell a visitor what they would want to hear- but I will not visit a false god Mosque- especially one in my general area where a teen could not even return to her home in fear of her life for converting to Christianity- if we don't see something terribly wrong with this- then the blindness is definitely spreading- but again, this is all prophesied in our Holy Scriptures-

Franklin wrote:I skimmed this long thread and I will give my non-Christian view here. I am in the middle of reading the Quran, I have read several books on Islam, and I have been attending my local mosque weekly for a while now to learn more about Islam.

My first suggestion is that anyone who wants to understand a little about Islam should visit their local mosque and talk to a religious leader there. Islam doesn't have a formal priesthood, but in practical terms it does have religious leaders who are comparable to priests in catholicism and orthodoxy. And like in these religions, the average Muslims tend not to know very much. So to understand the religion, you need to speak to a religious leader.

Islam today is in a similar state to Catholicism around the time of Thomas Aquinas. In fact I would say that Islam has more in common with medieval Christianity than modern Christianity does. But in terms of doctrine, Islam is fundamentally more tolerant of other religions than Christianity is. Islam has a concept called "dhimmi" which means that other religions living under Muslim rule are supposed to be self-governing and most of sharia law does not apply to them.

Early America was (in my opinion) the best Christian country in history with very strong religious freedom. But modern America is something completely different. It is a strange mix of secularism and corrupt Christianity, and seems to have little respect for religious freedom. Religions are still protected by old American laws and by the constitution, but the trend is in the wrong direction and I expect that religious freedom will decline.

Given current trends, Western countries will either become degenerate third-world countries as morality continues to decline, or they will become Islamic. I am not sure which is better, but I tend to side with Islam.

What is official Muslim teaching concerning Muslims who convert to Christianity?

temporal1 wrote: has anyone read the EO? is it available to the public?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of ... ted-states

mike wrote:

Franklin wrote:I skimmed this long thread and I will give my non-Christian view here. I am in the middle of reading the Quran, I have read several books on Islam, and I have been attending my local mosque weekly for a while now to learn more about Islam.

My first suggestion is that anyone who wants to understand a little about Islam should visit their local mosque and talk to a religious leader there. Islam doesn't have a formal priesthood, but in practical terms it does have religious leaders who are comparable to priests in catholicism and orthodoxy. And like in these religions, the average Muslims tend not to know very much. So to understand the religion, you need to speak to a religious leader.

Islam today is in a similar state to Catholicism around the time of Thomas Aquinas. In fact I would say that Islam has more in common with medieval Christianity than modern Christianity does. But in terms of doctrine, Islam is fundamentally more tolerant of other religions than Christianity is. Islam has a concept called "dhimmi" which means that other religions living under Muslim rule are supposed to be self-governing and most of sharia law does not apply to them.

Early America was (in my opinion) the best Christian country in history with very strong religious freedom. But modern America is something completely different. It is a strange mix of secularism and corrupt Christianity, and seems to have little respect for religious freedom. Religions are still protected by old American laws and by the constitution, but the trend is in the wrong direction and I expect that religious freedom will decline.

Given current trends, Western countries will either become degenerate third-world countries as morality continues to decline, or they will become Islamic. I am not sure which is better, but I tend to side with Islam.

What is official Muslim teaching concerning Muslims who convert to Christianity?

"Officially" it can carry a death penalty. That being said, it seldom does, mostly family problems, and harassment by police. If I recall correctly, no one ever committed apostasy in Jordan, as the government would never change the religion on one's identity card, hence no apostasy. Officially, nothing ever changed. Problem was when a muslim female convert tries to get married to one who is born as and thus has an identity card that says they are "christian."

It is my understanding that executions for apostasy have taken place in Saudi Arabia, but I have never seen one first hand.

J.M.

mike wrote:What is official Muslim teaching concerning Muslims who convert to Christianity?

This is like asking what was the official Catholic teaching concerning Catholics who converted to Anabaptism around 1600. The Catholic position was in clear violation of the New Testament, as much of the Muslim position today is in violation of the Quran. There is no basis in the Quran for punishment for apostasy.