Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
Dan Z
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Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Dan Z » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:18 pm

Let me start by saying that I don't appreciate the general direction the current administration has articulated and is heading in relationship to refugees, travelers, and immigrants into this country. Walling off America (literally & figuratively) as a part of an "America First" ideology seems, ironically, un-American .

Furthermore, I think it is clear that there is a perspective held by the President, and many who influence him most closely, that sees (non-western) immigration as an existential threat to the balance of cultural, financial and political power in America. The recent ban on refugees and travelers from seven Muslim countries, executive actions on the border wall and deportations, etc., are likely practical outworkings of that anti-(non-western) immigrant bent.

For both a faith and political reasons, I disagree with this perspective.

That being said, I think it is right to affirm the following points related to the entry of Muslims of certain ideological perspectives into the USA, and agree with Trump administration's attempts to strengthen these areas:

    1) There are Muslims who believe in violent Jihad against the west: Even if over 99% of Muslims disagree, that still means there are potentially millions of Muslims who might be violent if given the chance. The USA needs to continually improve its efforts in vetting, identifying and excluding these potential threats from entering.

    2) There are a larger percent (still a minority) of Muslims who hold conservative/fundamental views on the the implementation of the more violent aspects of Sharia law (e.g. stoning of adulterers, whippings and amputations for thievery and other crimes, honor killings, death penalty for leaving Islam): Perhaps a few hundred million of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world hold these views. According to Pew Research, they tend to be concentrated more strongly in a few countries: Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Jordan, Palestinian Terr., and Malaysia to be specific. These beliefs are antithetical to the principals western democracy and modern civility. In it's vetting process, the USA should take ongoing steps to limit the immigration of those individuals holding ideologies that are antithetical to western freedom & civility.
[By the way, there are certain subsets of Christianity that hold similar violent beliefs related to the implementation of OT Law (Theonomy) - & we have even had a few of them on the old MD advocating for their perspective].

The USA is a land of immigrants - and that shouldn't change now as a part of any "America First" mentality. However, I do think putting significant resources toward continually sophisticated and targeted ideological vetting of entrants into the US & Canada is crucial. Better vetting will help the US weed out threats while at the same time freely welcoming those who are compatible with the ideals of freedom and democracy.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Judas Maccabeus » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:53 pm

They seem to have forgotten the elephant in the room.

Saudi Arabia, the worlds biggest exporter of Salafiast/Whabhiaist ideology. They spend billions to export it, and if a jihadiaist problem exists in the Balakans, blame the Saudis directly.

J.M.
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Dan Z » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:07 pm

Judas Maccabeus wrote:They seem to have forgotten the elephant in the room.

Saudi Arabia, the worlds biggest exporter of Salafiast/Whabhiaist ideology. They spend billions to export it, and if a jihadiaist problem exists in the Balakans, blame the Saudis directly.

J.M.


I agree. In fact, much of the modern approach to Islamist radicalism originated in Saudi Arabia about 50 - 60 years ago particularly from a leader in the Muslim Brotherhood called Sayyid Qutb.

This county is notably missing from the Pew research - perhaps because they were not able to conduct the research there.
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Robert
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Robert » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:18 pm

The challenge is the threat is worldwide, not jut to the US. ISIS is killing as many other Muslims as non-Muslims. I struggle with just worrying about them coming over here. This means they are left to go kill others. Not sure that is a better way, but have no answer to what is.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:32 pm

Dan Z wrote:That being said, I think it is right to affirm the following points related to the entry of Muslims of certain ideological perspectives into the USA, and agree with Trump administration's attempts to strengthen these areas:

    1) There are Muslims who believe in violent Jihad against the west: Even if over 99% of Muslims disagree, that still means there are potentially millions of Muslims who might be violent if given the chance. The USA needs to continually improve its efforts in vetting, identifying and excluding these potential threats from entering.

    2) There are a larger percent (still a minority) of Muslims who hold conservative/fundamental views on the the implementation of the more violent aspects of Sharia law (e.g. stoning of adulterers, whippings and amputations for thievery and other crimes, honor killings, death penalty for leaving Islam): Perhaps a few hundred million of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world hold these views. According to Pew Research, they tend to be concentrated more strongly in a few countries: Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Jordan, Palestinian Terr., and Malaysia to be specific. These beliefs are antithetical to the principals western democracy and modern civility. In it's vetting process, the USA should take ongoing steps to limit the immigration of those individuals holding ideologies that are antithetical to western freedom & civility.


I like the balance in your post.

Here's where I disagree - I think it's essential to have strong vetting in both of these areas. As far as I can tell, we already do. The process should be monitored continuously and weaknesses should be fixed if found. And I think that happens too.

And before making big, sudden changes that affect a lot of lives, you should talk to your own people so that you are sure you know the basic facts. So many of these people complained that that they had no idea before the executive order was in place, had no input into the decision, and had difficulty figuring out just exactly what the vaguely worded executive order meant. The right order is ready, aim, fire. This was firing without aiming, and without preparation.
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Dan Z » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:56 pm

I also don't think a 90-day moratorium was needed (at least from where I sit - admittedly not very high on the Mountain). I think improved vetting means continually building upon what works. The 90-day ban feels, to a lot of folks (me included), like it is more related to the anti-immigrant bent of an "America First" ideology than it is to addressing cracks in the vetting process. I think that is why the reaction on the street was so visceral - folks who care about this stuff are reacting based on the more general anti-immigrant messages they have perceived.

On the other hand, I do think some of the left seem naive when they speak as if Islam is being unfairly targeted, or that ideological threats are not significant. Minority perspective or not - there are millions within the Muslim world who hold ideas that are out of step with western democratic freedoms - and their presence does represent an existential threat to western security.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:00 pm

Dan Z wrote:On the other hand, I do think some of the left seem naive when they speak as if Islam is being unfairly targeted, or that ideological threats are not significant. Minority perspective or not - there are millions within the Muslim world who hold ideas that are out of step with western democratic freedoms - and their presence does represent an existential threat to western security.

I definitely agree with you there. Islamic extremism is a very serious threat. And we should definitely keep evaluating our screening process to protect ourselves. In fact, working with refugees makes this threat even more clear to me. I'll post something in the thread about working with these families.

But let's not confuse the victims with the perpetrators. That's what happened when we turned a ship of Jewish refugees away because we were afraid there might be Nazi spies on the ship. And so many of them died in concentration camps.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?

Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Dan Z » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:16 pm

Bootstrap wrote:Islamic extremism is a very serious threat


To me the term "Islamic Extremism" seems to imply a small radical group of adherents. But in countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan, belief in applied Sharia Law, honor killings, the death penalty for apostates, are not fringe positions. They represent the views of a sizable portion of the Muslim population.

In fact, working with refugees makes this threat even more clear to me. I'll post something in the thread about working with these families.


God bless you in this work!

But let's not confuse the victims with the perpetrators.


Absolutely!
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MaxPC
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby MaxPC » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:12 pm

What did Jesus tell us?
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Postby Dan Z » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:56 pm

MaxPC wrote:What did Jesus tell us?


Amen...and your point??
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