Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
MaxPC
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by MaxPC »

Dan Z wrote:
MaxPC wrote:What did Jesus tell us?
Amen...and your point??
The point is obvious vis a vis the thread topic. :mrgreen:
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mike
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Dan, it seems like you're interested in telling Caesar how to do his job of securing our national border in a wise way. How is this different from advising Caesar how to wage war in a wise and "just" way?
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Dan Z »

mike wrote:Dan, it seems like you're interested in telling Caesar how to do his job of securing our national border in a wise way. How is this different from advising Caesar how to wage war in a wise and "just" way?
Very good point Mike. Glad you made it. :hug:

In putting down my thoughts on the present topic of immigration in this politics thread, Caesar was honestly not my target audience (I'd probably have posted it elsewhere if that were the case ;) ) - and I certainly grant Caesar his God ordained right both to wield the sword and protect his borders - justly. I'll also grant that Caesar's ordination is different than mine as a Christ follower - its one of the reasons I don't feel comfortable voting or participating in the coercive power of the state.

In hindsight, and in acknowledgement of your point, I should have worded a few of my underlined sentences differently to be less directed at the government (e.g. "The USA needs to...") :oops: and more directed to ethics in general - which is my real interest in coming to MN for a discussion like this. Where are the boundaries of basic justice...and when/how are they potentially being overstepped? Also, when are they NOT being overstepped (which was the gist of my affirmation of the vetting process)?

Perhaps my dualism is fraying a bit around the edges...and I'm still wrestling with where those edges are (we've worked together at this topic in a previous thread)...but I am beginning to feel stronger about the fact that being salt & light in God's world means being willing to speak up when we see injustice - particularly when it comes to the sacred value of life and human dignity. Whether it be at the individual or societal level, we Christ followers need to bear witness to a better way. Might that include keeping our eyes open for when Caesar is being unjust?
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Valerie
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Dan Z wrote:Let me start by saying that I don't appreciate the general direction the current administration has articulated and is heading in relationship to refugees, travelers, and immigrants into this country. Walling off America (literally & figuratively) as a part of an "America First" ideology seems, ironically, un-American .

Furthermore, I think it is clear that there is a perspective held by the President, and many who influence him most closely, that sees (non-western) immigration as an existential threat to the balance of cultural, financial and political power in America. The recent ban on refugees and travelers from seven Muslim countries, executive actions on the border wall and deportations, etc., are likely practical outworkings of that anti-(non-western) immigrant bent.

For both a faith and political reasons, I disagree with this perspective.

That being said, I think it is right to affirm the following points related to the entry of Muslims of certain ideological perspectives into the USA, and agree with Trump administration's attempts to strengthen these areas:
  • 1) There are Muslims who believe in violent Jihad against the west: Even if over 99% of Muslims disagree, that still means there are potentially millions of Muslims who might be violent if given the chance. The USA needs to continually improve its efforts in vetting, identifying and excluding these potential threats from entering.

    2) There are a larger percent (still a minority) of Muslims who hold conservative/fundamental views on the the implementation of the more violent aspects of Sharia law (e.g. stoning of adulterers, whippings and amputations for thievery and other crimes, honor killings, death penalty for leaving Islam): Perhaps a few hundred million of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world hold these views. According to Pew Research, they tend to be concentrated more strongly in a few countries: Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Jordan, Palestinian Terr., and Malaysia to be specific. These beliefs are antithetical to the principals western democracy and modern civility. In it's vetting process, the USA should take ongoing steps to limit the immigration of those individuals holding ideologies that are antithetical to western freedom & civility.
[By the way, there are certain subsets of Christianity that hold similar violent beliefs related to the implementation of OT Law (Theonomy) - & we have even had a few of them on the old MD advocating for their perspective].

The USA is a land of immigrants - and that shouldn't change now as a part of any "America First" mentality. However, I do think putting significant resources toward continually sophisticated and targeted ideological vetting of entrants into the US & Canada is crucial. Better vetting will help us weed out threats while at the same time freely welcoming those who are compatible with the ideals of freedom and democracy.
No one is denying that the USA is a land of immigrants and our President has embraced this-
He has been made privy to information that you and I are not. He has stated his first priority, is to protect the nation he serves. That is what this ban is about-I think a lot of people in the media are twisting his words and intentions to imply otherwise.
America first meaning- he has to take care of the country he is 'voluntarily without getting paid' in serving. Protection- is something that voted him into office and he knows it-
Also there are those who already live here that there has been major complaints that they are not being taken care of-the neglect of Veterans who served our country, is one area he hopes to do a better job of helping.
Perhaps his intention when saying that is recognizing you wouldn't neglect your family to help someone outside your own family? Probably we are all reading into his statements in different ways.
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Josh
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Josh »

Whether or not America was a "land of immigrants" in the past doesn't have much bearing on what it is now, and in particular, America was never a land of Wahhabist Muslim immigrants.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:Whether or not America was a "land of immigrants" in the past doesn't have much bearing on what it is now, and in particular, America was never a land of Wahhabist Muslim immigrants.
No, back in the day, it was weeding out the socialist/communist/anarcharcist and other "undesirables." Now, it seems we love muslims with money, like the Saudis, even they are the SOURCE of Wahabbist teaching. Back in the day I got free Arabic lesions from them. If they only knew what use I put it to..........


J.M.
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MaxPC
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by MaxPC »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Back in the day I got free Arabic lesions from them.
J.M.
Were they painful? Did you see a doctor? :mrgreen:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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mike
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by mike »

Dan Z wrote:
mike wrote:Dan, it seems like you're interested in telling Caesar how to do his job of securing our national border in a wise way. How is this different from advising Caesar how to wage war in a wise and "just" way?
Very good point Mike. Glad you made it. :hug:

In putting down my thoughts on the present topic of immigration in this politics thread, Caesar was honestly not my target audience (I'd probably have posted it elsewhere if that were the case ;) ) - and I certainly grant Caesar his God ordained right both to wield the sword and protect his borders - justly. I'll also grant that Caesar's ordination is different than mine as a Christ follower - its one of the reasons I don't feel comfortable voting or participating in the coercive power of the state.

In hindsight, and in acknowledgement of your point, I should have worded a few of my underlined sentences differently to be less directed at the government (e.g. "The USA needs to...") :oops: and more directed to ethics in general - which is my real interest in coming to MN for a discussion like this. Where are the boundaries of basic justice...and when/how are they potentially being overstepped? Also, when are they NOT being overstepped (which was the gist of my affirmation of the vetting process)?

Perhaps my dualism is fraying a bit around the edges...and I'm still wrestling with where those edges are (we've worked together at this topic in a previous thread)...but I am beginning to feel stronger about the fact that being salt & light in God's world means being willing to speak up when we see injustice - particularly when it comes to the sacred value of life and human dignity. Whether it be at the individual or societal level, we Christ followers need to bear witness to a better way. Might that include keeping our eyes open for when Caesar is being unjust?
Unjust by whose standards? What is this "basic justice" you speak of? If you're speaking of justice as defined by God in the Old Testament, your difference with theonomy is not a matter of substance but of interpretation or degree. If you're speaking of justice according to the teachings of Jesus, I think joshuabgood is much closer to the mark than you are. If you're speaking of justice according to the Constitution, that's another matter still. Or maybe it's justice according to natural law, or some other basic human rule? So which is it?

I had to give some feedback, Dan, after reading your thoughts written as policy advice to the government. :)
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Dan Z »

mike wrote:I had to give some feedback, Dan, after reading your thoughts written as policy advice to the government. :)
Good catch Mike! I agree...I was (unintentionally) out of bounds there according to my own faith commitments, and gratefully receive your brotherly rebuke. :oops: :hug:
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Bootstrap »

mike wrote:Unjust by whose standards? What is this "basic justice" you speak of?
A family that has been selected by our government and screened repeatedly for years is finally told it is time to go to the United States. They sell everything they own and head to the airport. Then they are told, nope, they can't come. No good reason is given for the change of mind. Is that just?

Students currently studying in the United States dare not go back home for the summer because they cannot get any assurance that they would be able to come back in. No good reason is given. Is that just?

Families are separated who once had legal approval to be able to be together here in the United States, but now they must all leave the county or else face uncertainty of being able to reunite at any clearly known time. Is that just?

Last year, there were 90,000 visas from these 7 countries. Not a single terrorist incident involves anyone from these countries. We've had 3,000,000 refugees since 1980, again without a single terrorist incident. This isn't about just 109 people.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
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