Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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mike
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by mike »

Bootstrap wrote:
mike wrote:My friend's sister has been an aid worker in refugee camps and he said that she has seen Muslim men beating their wives, and feels conflicted about their culture and what it means for the countries to which they want to immigrate. I think this is the type of concern Robert is talking about.
This is a valid concern. Female genital mutilation is also a valid concern. The families we work with get quite a few medical checkups, everyone. I suspect screening for this kind of problem is one of the reasons for that.

I do think most Muslims in America assimilate.
I think too they do to some degree, and I also think that the Muslims who emigrate are often the more liberal, already somewhat westernized Muslims. There are exceptions, for example the Muslim honor killings that happen occasionally. But I think that the West does a number to Muslim/Arab culture when they arrive here.
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cmbl
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by cmbl »

A note on Dan Z's stats:
Dan Z wrote: Pakistan: Support for Sharia (84%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (34%)
I'm with you there. This calculates the probability that a Muslim in Pakistan supports Sharia and applying it to non-muslims.
Dan Z wrote: Pakistan: Support for Sharia (84%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (34%) X Corporal punishment (88%)
Multiplying the third term is where you lose me.

Both the "sharia for non-Muslims" probability (34%, given that they support sharia) and the "corporal punishment" probability (88%, given that they support sharia) are probabilities given that the respondent supports sharia. But "sharia for non-Muslims" and "corporal punishment" are not known to be independent events. In other words, I don't know how much that 34% group overlaps with the 88% group. It could be that all thirty-four percentage points of the 34% support corporal punishment. It could be that only twenty-two percentage points of the 34% do.

So I'm OK with saying (84%) X (88%) = 74% of Muslims in Pakistan support sharia and applying it with corporal punishment.
I'm OK with saying (84%) X (34%) = 29% of Muslims in Pakistan support sharia and applying it to non-Muslims.

But I don't have enough info from the Pew study to calculate the probability that a Muslim in Pakistan supports sharia, applying it to non-Muslims, and applying it with corporal punishment. It could be as high as:
(84%) X (34%) X (100% - i.e., all of the 34% are in the 88%) = 29%.
It could be as low as:
(84%) X (34%) X (65% - i.e., twenty-two percentage points of the 34% are in the 88%: 22/34 = 65%) = 19%

This could bring Afghanistan up to (99%) X (61%) X (100%) = 60%, for example.
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Dan Z »

Thanks for checking me CMBL...it's heartening to know that someone actually got that far in the post. :hug:

You are correct...upon review, I misread the third stat as a subset of the second (Sharia applied to Muslims only)...but instead it is a subset of the first (Sharia as the law of the land). The correct calculation then is to take the lesser percentage of either "Sharia for non Muslims" or "Corporal punishment" and multiply it by the "Sharia as the law of the land" category - but also to recognize that this is a maximum percentage, and that it is very likely to be influenced negatively by that third category.

Here are the corrected numbers:
  • Turkey: Support for Sharia (12%) X Corporal punishment (35%) = no more than 4% of Turkish Muslims support Sharia Law applied to all with corporal punishment.

    Lebanon: Support for Sharia (29%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (48%) = no more than 14% Of Lebanese Muslims support Sharia Law applied to all with corporal punishment.

    Pakistan: Support for Sharia (84%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (34%) = no more than 29% of Pakistani Muslims support Sharia Law applied to all with corporal punishment.
and the most extreme example...
  • Afghanistan: Support for Sharia Law (99%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (61%) = no more than 60% of Afghani Muslims support Sharia Law applied to all with corporal punishment.
Thanks again for the correction. I suspect my point still stands, but is moderated a bit by this correction.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Bootstrap »

For our threat level, the real question is this: what percent of the refugees we let in hold these beliefs?

Less than 1% are referred to us as candidates. Then our government picks them over, involving a good handful of agencies, to make sure they are not a danger to us. They try to screen the extremists out.
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Robert
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Robert »

The question I keep coming back to is, If I help a person in this world, am I making an attempt past that to help them get to the next world?

Often charity and physical support is where we stop at. While their earthly life does matter, their eternal life matters much more. How much are Christian organizations working towards that with refugees?

Do we cop out by saying we can not be pushy?

The great commision says to proclaim, not pass it on by osmosis.

[bible]mark 16,15[/bible]
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Dan Z »

I agree Robert...as followers of Jesus, I don't think "either/or" is an option - but rather "both/and"
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

MaxPC wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote: Back in the day I got free Arabic lesions from them.
J.M.
Were they painful? Did you see a doctor? :mrgreen:
No. but typing on a cellphone is.

I got a quick lesson in Islamic evangelism methodology

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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

mike wrote:My friend's sister has been an aid worker in refugee camps and he said that she has seen Muslim men beating their wives, and feels conflicted about their culture and what it means for the countries to which they want to immigrate. I think this is the type of concern Robert is talking about.
Yeah, it does not surprise me one bit. We lived off compound in the gulf for about two years, I am married to a visiting public health nurse. We did not observe any significant amount of domestic abuse in excess of what one would see in the states. Men generally treated their wives well, but there is not that emotional closeness one sees in the west. A man's best friend and confidante is almost never his wife, it is more frequently his uncle or another male. Similarly the women tend to confide in another woman. It is sometimes thought of as two completely different societies in one space.

It does not shock me at all when people are under stress and the traditional role of relatives and the village in preventing such things, is removed that domestic violence would go off the charts. Husband and wife do not share those bonds of affection seen in the west, and she is an easy target. Strangers are highly unlikely to get involved in other people's business, so it goes unchecked.

As far as FGM goes, you will not see it in much of the Arab world. It is common in Egypt and Sudan, almost unheard of in Jordan and the UAE. Links to Africa seem to be the factor in how common it is.

We found many of our neighbors "chameleons ". When they were in western company, they acted western. I am quite aware that many of my friends were from the more educated part of the population, also the ones that would be more comfortable around westerners.

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Josh »

If an area becomes predominantly populated with people from Pakistan, it will start to be like Pakistan, whether for good or for bad. So in the UK you now have things like honour killings, arranged cousin marriages, and Rothertham.

If we accept a lot of refugees from specific countries, they will eventually cluster with other refugees with whom they share a culture, language, and religion. Eventually these enclaves will look very much like the places they came from.

My question is how useful helping to facilitate that process is.
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justme
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by justme »

Josh wrote:If we accept a lot of refugees from specific countries, they will eventually cluster with other refugees with whom they share a culture, language, and religion. Eventually these enclaves will look very much like the places they came from.
well, yes.
church plants use a similar process.
it's human nature, i would say.

i suppose the natives here shouldn't have accepted and helped the first settlers.
i've been thinking of that more than i used to.
america as we know it, was built on refugees and immigrants.
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