Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
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Robert
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Robert »

Bootstrap wrote:Here's a thought about threat.

Some dogs bite. I've been bitten by dogs twice. Some breeds of dogs are responsible for more dog bites than others. I have heard some people suggest that we should forbid pit bulls as pets because of this. But I think it really does depend how the pit bull was raised and trained, and I've known some great pit bull pets.

Suppose that we had 3,000,000 pit bulls, and not one ever bit someone. Would you allow someone to have a pit bull in your neighborhood? It's not that dogs never bite, and we all know that we got bit badly on September 11th, but when you have a good track record over a long period of time, shouldn't that inform your behavior?

Suppose someone said there's no way to prove that a pit bull won't bite someone, so we're going to forbid pit bulls for an undefined period of time so that we examine the question. Would that be reasonable, given our track record so far?
Most Muslims support Sharia Law. This brings honor killings, female genital mutilation, beheading, killing gays, woman's rights restrictions and cutting hands off. This is the culture and society most of the immigrants who come to other countries have been taught is right. If they immigrate in enough numbers, as happened in Europe, they continue to believe and carry this ideology. It is hard for them to assimilate when entire communities hold to their concepts of justice. Most western cultures have become very secular. Muslims think this is wrong. They want a Theonomy with Sharia Law as the guide.

Part of the reason why there is so much instability in that region is their culture. It is very authoritarian. This is one reason why the US government is wanting to control the amounts of immigrants from many areas. Through history, it has found that too large of any one group and this happens. Hispanics have some of the same issue, but they are not as controlling and brutal as Islam, although drug trade and lack of respect for the law is a big issue with that culture.

I am not saying everything western culture does it right, but there is a core respect for life that does drive it. It is founded on Judeo-Christian ethics which is often contrary to Sharia Law.
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Szdfan
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Robert wrote:Most Muslims support Sharia Law. This brings honor killings, female genital mutilation, beheading, killing gays, woman's rights restrictions and cutting hands off. This is the culture and society most of the immigrants who come to other countries have been taught is right. If they immigrate in enough numbers, as happened in Europe, they continue to believe and carry this ideology. It is hard for them to assimilate when entire communities hold to their concepts of justice. Most western cultures have become very secular. Muslims think this is wrong. They want a Theonomy with Sharia Law as the guide.
My understanding is that Sharia law is simply religious law that governs the life of Muslims and that there are numerous interpretations and schools of Sharia. Some understandings of Sharia in some parts of the world do include "honor killings, female genital mutilation, beheading, killing gays, woman's rights restrictions and cutting hands off" but that's not a universal belief or understanding.

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstr ... ntries.pdf
Sharia is generally defined as God’s eternal and immutable will for humanity. This ideal Islamic law is expressed in the Quran and Mohammed’s example (sunna) and developed by jurisprudence (fiqh). However, numerous interpretations of sharia can be found in laws, scholarly literature, the media and in popular perceptions. In that respect, there are many sharias. In Tunisia, polygamy was formally abolished in 1956, allegedly referring to sharia, in Indonesia polygamy is
limited and controlled by state ‘religious courts’ taking sharia into account, while in Egypt, women’s rights to obtain a divorce have recently been expanded with reference to sharia. Throughout history and throughout the Muslim world, sharia has been shaped and reshaped, influenced by local customs, reconstructed by colonial law, and more
recently by national legislatures, administrators, courts and international treaties. This process is highly political. The involved political actors in Muslim countries are characteristically spread over an ideological-religious spectrum ranging from secularists and moderate modernists, to traditional conservatives and orthodox puritans, and ultimately, to radical and revolutionary Islamists. Due to the extraordinary variety of views on sharia within Muslim countries, the ‘rules in use’ of sharia differ greatly between these groups. When people refer to the sharia, they are, in fact, referring to their sharia in the name of the eternal will of the Almighty God. Struggles and coalitions between strategic groups in Muslim countries have led to different outcomes, which are reflected in the different positions of sharia within national
legal systems.
My understanding is that Sharia is not a formal code or law and that how it's understood and practiced highly depends on local customs and culture. Sharia in a relatively secularized country like Malaysia or Turkey is going to be very different from Sharia in Saudi Arabia.
Part of the reason why there is so much instability in that region is their culture. It is very authoritarian.
I think the instability has more to do with the after effects of Western colonialism, in which the Western powers drew national lines on a map without considering the people that lived in those lands.
This is one reason why the US government is wanting to control the amounts of immigrants from many areas. Through history, it has found that too large of any one group and this happens. Hispanics have some of the same issue, but they are not as controlling and brutal as Islam, although drug trade and lack of respect for the law is a big issue with that culture.

I am not saying everything western culture does it right, but there is a core respect for life that does drive it. It is founded on Judeo-Christian ethics which is often contrary to Sharia Law.
I find this bit here really disturbing Robert. I think you're drawing with too big of a brush in making generalizations both about the West and about other cultures and ethnicities.
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mike
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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My friend's sister has been an aid worker in refugee camps and he said that she has seen Muslim men beating their wives, and feels conflicted about their culture and what it means for the countries to which they want to immigrate. I think this is the type of concern Robert is talking about.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Robert wrote:Most Muslims support Sharia Law. This brings honor killings, female genital mutilation, beheading, killing gays, woman's rights restrictions and cutting hands off. This is the culture and society most of the immigrants who come to other countries have been taught is right.
Is that true? How can I find out? I certainly don't want to see the things you mention on that list in the United States, and I know that the Muslims I know well enough to discuss these things don't either. I'm pretty sure that most Muslim refugees do not, because they are asked these questions repeatedly as part of the vetting process, checked for links to extremists and terrorists, etc. This is often precisely what they are fleeing.

But do most Muslims? Do most Muslims in the United States? I would probably start by looking at polls and surveys done by groups generally considered reliable. Pew has done a couple:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... -the-world
a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.
They don't give a percent for the United States. I'm guessing the number would be very low - lower than in Turkey - but that's just a guess. I haven't seen reliable numbers - and yes, I've seen the one Trump cites, which is deeply flawed as a poll. Don't trust political activist groups to do accurate polls about people they are campaigning against. If you look at their methodology, it's pretty messed up. After all, if you start trusting this kind of silly poll, you start to believe things like this: 57% Of Republicans Say Dismantle Constitution And Make Christianity National Religion. So let's all calm down and insist on reliable statistics from less politically active groups using methodologies people of various opinions can agree on ...

Also - asking "do you believe Shariah should be the law of the United States" is a very different question from "do you believe in Sharia?" It's a lot like Judaism - "do you believe Jewish law should be the law of the United States" is a very different question from "do you believe in Jewish law?" Praying 5 times a day is part of Sharia. Pew has a really good study on beliefs about Sharia that asks the kind of question that take these differences into account.
Robert wrote:Muslims think this is wrong. They want a Theonomy with Sharia Law as the guide.

I am not saying everything western culture does it right, but there is a core respect for life that does drive it. It is founded on Judeo-Christian ethics which is often contrary to Sharia Law.
The Old Testament is often at odds with American law too. When we talk about Judeo-Christian ethics, we don't usually mean things like this:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 wrote:If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
Leviticus 25:44-46 wrote:You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
If you ask me if I believe in God's law, I most certainly do. If you ask me if I think those verses should be added to American law, I most certainly do not.

I definitely agree that we need to screen for terrorists and extremists - and I think we already do. Successfully, so far - nobody from these 7 countries has ever committed a terrorist act, none of the 3,000,000 refugees admitted since 1980 has ever committed a terrorist act.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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mike wrote:My friend's sister has been an aid worker in refugee camps and he said that she has seen Muslim men beating their wives, and feels conflicted about their culture and what it means for the countries to which they want to immigrate. I think this is the type of concern Robert is talking about.
This is a valid concern. Female genital mutilation is also a valid concern. The families we work with get quite a few medical checkups, everyone. I suspect screening for this kind of problem is one of the reasons for that.

I do think most Muslims in America assimilate.
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Robert
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Bootstrap wrote: I do think most Muslims in America assimilate.
Go to Dearborn, MI or Topeka, IN and you will see they do not do this well. These are pockets of high populations. They assimilate well when a minority of the population.

Some may think because I state some of these things, I support it. Please do not make that mistake. I am just sharing what I have learned and perceive cultures and how they blend or do not blend. This is to the core of why many fear large groups of Muslims immigrating.

A recent poll in Europe showed that 55% of those polled (10,000 from multiple EU countries) did not want any more "Muslim" immigrants. This was Europe. They are feeling the heavy brunt of Middle East immigrants right now.

My personal feelings is Islam is wrong. It misses the mark. While I do not villianize those who follow it, I do believe much of it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. I would help them as a person, but do not want to help support or further the Islamic faith in any way.
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Well said Robert. As I said in my OP, in light of the ideological incompatibilities both Radical and Fundamentalist Islam has with western democratic freedoms, it makes perfect sense that the US government would continue to ratchet up its vetting for both radical jihadist tendencies as well as incompatible fundamentalist ideology.

That being said - I get concerned when I hear broad-brush statements like "
Robert wrote:Most Muslims support Sharia Law. This brings honor killings, female genital mutilation, beheading, killing gays, woman's rights restrictions and cutting hands off.
Why am I concerned?

Because generalized statements like that are not fair to most of the world's Muslims (including many Muslim refugees who have suffered at the hands of radical and fundamentalist Muslims), and they are often used to foment ideas like banning Muslims entirely (not accusing you of this Robert - but our president has talked of a "Muslim ban"). Anyway, I think that is an unjust conclusion based on an unfair characterization.

Here...let me make my case with data from the Pew Report I cited in the OP.

First, while it may be true that a majority of the world's Muslims would prefer Sharia law, this can vary greatly by region. For example, while support for Sharia in southern Asia and the Middle East, support among the Muslims of eastern Europe and central Asia (including Turkey & Russia) is low - only about 20%.

Second, among the supporters of Sharia law, the data show that a majority would not support the implementation of Sharia for non-Muslims.

Third, among those who believe Sharia should be the law of the land, only about half would favor the corporal punishment elements of Sharia.

Let's do the math to illustrate further (I'll choose a liberal, moderate, conservative, and extreme example for illustration):
  • Turkey: Support for Sharia (12%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (43%) X Corporal punishment (35%) = 2% of Muslims support Sharia Law applied to all with corporal punishment.

    Lebanon: Support for Sharia (29%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (48%) X Corporal punishment (50%) = 7% Of Muslims support Sharia Law applied to all with corporal punishment.

    Pakistan: Support for Sharia (84%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (34%) X Corporal punishment (88%) = 25% of Muslims support Sharia Law applied to all with corporal punishment.
and the most extreme example...
  • Afghanistan: Support for Sharia Law (99%) X Sharia for non-Muslims (61%) x Corporal punishment (81%) = 49% of Muslims support Sharia Law applied to all with corporal punishment.
So...when you say "most Muslims favor Sharia" which brings "beheading, cutting off hands, etc.", in most cases only a small minority of Muslims (1/4 or less) would want to go there - even in crazy-radical Afghanistan, the number is less than half who would favor applying whippings and beheading to you or me for a crime.

Still, that's a lot of people no doubt (I argued that in my OP), and certainly justification for strong vetting, but most Muslims don't deserve to be accused of radical or fundamentalist ideas - nor do they deserve to be banned or excluded based on these stereotypes. That's why ideas like a broad "Muslim ban" or moratorium seem unjust and unwarranted, while continued strong vetting seems reasonable.
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Dan Z wrote:So...when you say "most Muslims favor Sharia" which brings "beheading, cutting off hands, etc.", in most cases only a small minority of Muslims (1/4 or less) would want to go there - even in crazy-radical Afghanistan, the number is less than half who would favor applying whippings and beheading to you or me for a crime.

Still, that's a lot of people no doubt (I argued that in my OP), and certainly justification for strong vetting, but most Muslims don't deserve to be accused of radical or fundamentalist ideas - nor do they deserve to be banned or excluded based on these stereotypes. That's why ideas like a broad "Muslim ban" or moratorium seem unjust and unwarranted, while continued strong vetting seems reasonable.
Well said, Dan.

Quick reality check. Does everyone agree with that last sentence, or are there people here who would disagree? Does anyone believe we should completely ban Muslim immigration? Does anyone believe that we should let anyone who wants in, no matter what they believe, even violent extremists? Would anyone be against helping refugees when it is safe to do so?

I suspect we actually have a substantial amount of agreement on what we want to achieve.
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Robert wrote:A recent poll in Europe showed that 55% of those polled (10,000 from multiple EU countries) did not want any more "Muslim" immigrants. This was Europe. They are feeling the heavy brunt of Middle East immigrants right now.
Parts of Europe are really flooded now, countries like Germany have really done their share.

I actually prefer the more cautious approach that the United States has taken, but it also means that we let many fewer Syrian refugees in. Some European countries also believe that all countries have a responsibility here, and that we are not doing our share in the United States. I think we need to continue very careful vetting - and if we find problems in what we are doing, we should fix them. That probably means we will continue to move slower than other countries.

I don't know how "extreme vetting" is different from what we are doing now. I do know how banning all refugees is different from what we are doing now.
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

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Robert wrote:My personal feelings is Islam is wrong. It misses the mark. While I do not villianize those who follow it, I do believe much of it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. I would help them as a person, but do not want to help support or further the Islamic faith in any way.
I definitely agree with you there. I'd like to help refugees regardless of their faith. I do not want to promote Islam. I do want to promote Christian service and love, a belief that Christians should serve others. You know, "true evangelical faith ..."
Robert wrote:Go to Dearborn, MI or Topeka, IN and you will see they do not do this well. These are pockets of high populations. They assimilate well when a minority of the population.
I assume you're right about this, the last time I was in Dearborn I was at the Ford museum looking at cars, not in Arab neighborhoods. I don't live in an area with a high concentration of Muslims.

When I lived in Berlin, about 25% of the population was Turkish, and there were neighborhoods with signs in Turkish. So I have seen that kind of place.
Robert wrote:A recent poll in Europe showed that 55% of those polled (10,000 from multiple EU countries) did not want any more "Muslim" immigrants. This was Europe. They are feeling the heavy brunt of Middle East immigrants right now.
I don't think there's any danger at all of the United States taking in as many Muslims as Europe - especially as a percent of our population.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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