Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.
temporal1
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by temporal1 »

temporal1 wrote:
Ernie wrote:Here is a new book that is written by an Anabaptist that really gets to the heart of the matter. This is a great little book to give away right now.

https://tgsinternational.com/product/radical-islam/
i admit to being fearful of reading this book.
hopefully, in a year's time, i might be less fearful? i hope.
i suppose .. i should clarify this a bit. :)
my central fear lies in "crazy white people" who can get things epically wrong, esp when mixing self-righteous indignation (Christian or other) with human law .. ignoring God's plan, and God's timing.

"Hearing God"
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=329

1 Kings 19:12 / gentle whisper
http://biblehub.com/1_kings/19-12.htm
Dan wrote:
.. Furthermore, I recognize there is a danger of over-rationalizing any issue, and justifying involvement in all kinds of political causes ("that tax law harms my neighbor" or "Obamacare harms my neighbor").

Pretty soon we might find ourselves sucked into involvement with a Kingdom that is not ours.

I think conscience...prudence...prayer...and discernment should all be at play here before we weigh in, particularly on any politically charged issue.
DanZ might have written this. :P
the internet tempts frenzied reaction. in all circumstances, so much to learn about allowing for God's plan, and His timing; now, add the internet's frenetic screams.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
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haithabu
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by haithabu »

I believe in each country's sovereignty over its own borders, to the point of closing them completely if need be. Just as I believe in my own natural right to invite anyone or no one into my home.

A willingness to maintain one's boundaries, whether personal or national, is a sign of a decent self respect. An unwillingness to do so is a sign of its lack, as evidenced by Martin's comment - the idea that we deserve to be immigration doormats because we have wronged others in the past.

How that relates to Muslim immigration, I think that a clear message needs to be sent that there is no room for Islamist ideology in our countries and one way to do that is through vetting people through their connection to Islamist movements or teachings. A case in point being a Canadian Muslim woman who was recently denied entry into the US after an examination of her electronic devices.

If Islamism is a disease, you don't want to admit people who are likely to be part of its vector.

As far as our compassionate duty to refugees is concerned, I think we need to remember that while we want to do our share, we are not responsible to solve all the world's problems when the means to help them exists elsewhere.

And as with anything the importance of compassion needs to be balanced out against other values. Security is one. Ability to assimilate socially and economically is another.

One thing I have also noticed is that most refugees we bring over come from third countries where they are already relatively safe. So how does their situation differ objectively from that of any other economic migrant?

I have worked both with sponsored refugees and with foreign workers, and I would say that on the whole the latter show a higher level of energy and motivation than the former. I could almost say scrap the refugee program with a few humanitarian exceptions and instead give refugees preferential access to an expanded foreign worker program. Then we wouldn't have to worry about weaning some off the dole after the first few years.

I realize that this may sound Grinchy but I think that false guilt and unballasted idealism have led to poor decision making in this area up to the present.
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Dan Z
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Dan Z »

Quoted from the Dylan Roof thread:
appleman wrote:I simply do not understand the plain Mennonites that are openly protesting Trump's border positions at this point. Nor do I necessarily understand those that are very vocally supporting them for that matter.
Hmm...I didn't know there were any plain folks openly protesting Trump's border positions - I'm surprised - although I can appreciate their concerns. Let me share what is so concerning from my perspective Appleman, as a brother, since I suspect the climate up there north of the border is a bit different (pun intended :D ), and since I represent the position you cannot understand.

First, from where I sit, the reaction doesn't have to do with the government managing it's immigrant vetting. Everyone accepts that this is there job.

The reaction comes on the tail end of a lot of harsh campaign language about immigrants, and a lot of anger and fear and aggression being stoked in society. I'll admit that it is not totally unjustified - especially in the face of terrorism, incompatibility with some Islamic ideology, and some of the economic realities folks are facing.

Also, maybe those of us Mennonites who have lived and ministered overseas or in cross-cultural contexts or to refugees are especially sensitive to this, since we personally know people who are directly experiencing the growing anti-foreigner zeitgeist. We also know that this climate stokes a backlash oversees that makes it more difficult to do ministry.

So executive actions actions like closing the borders, building walls, stepping up raids in immigrant communities, etc. - while they seem somewhat minor if taken alone - feel like part of something insidious and much bigger that is growing down here...and elsewhere in the world. We may be wrong, but some of us see a trajectory that has shown itself before in history, and we are concerned for our neighbors and for what we see growing in people's hearts - enough to publicly say that we're concerned - even though our core instincts are to steer clear of the political fray if at all possible - and even if it puts us politically in league with people we normally don't find a lot of common ground with. And, apparently, enough to get at least a few of us joining with other faith communities and secular groups in publicly expressing our concern.

Not saying this to get you to agree...but to at least sew a bit of understanding. :hug: I certainly respect those whose conscience is not there (yet ;) ), or the majority of plain folks who, by principle, are not ready to enter the fray or express an opinion at this point.
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Martin
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Martin »

haithabu wrote: A willingness to maintain one's boundaries, whether personal or national, is a sign of a decent self respect.
Interesting thought. I will let this percolate.
haithabu wrote:
I realize that this may sound Grinchy but I think that false guilt and unballasted idealism have led to poor decision making in this area up to the present.
My fellow church members would agree with you. My perspective comes from working amongst the immigrant community and I am certainly not doing this because of guilt. However, I am idealistic and also endeavor to follow the Golden Rule.
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Robert
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Robert »

Szdfan wrote:Prime-time cable news shows virtually ignored Muslim voices when they hosted guests to discuss the fallout from President Donald Trump’s Muslim ban
I immediately consider this very biased since it says "Muslin" ban. The EO was not a Muslin ban but a ban of 7 countries, who were predominantly Muslim but not completely. It banned the Christian Syrians also.

I have heard multiple Muslims speak about this on the news I watch. Some for and against it.

I wonder how many Westerners the Iran news used when it banned all US refugees.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by JimFoxvog »

Martin wrote:So, my question. Is the US counter-offensive actually spreading Islam?
I don't know if US attacks are spreading Islam, but I think it highly probable it is spreading violent radicalism.
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Valerie
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Valerie »

JimFoxvog wrote:
Martin wrote:So, my question. Is the US counter-offensive actually spreading Islam?
I don't know if US attacks are spreading Islam, but I think it highly probable it is spreading violent radicalism.
Then how do you explain what Radical Islam is doing in all the other countries that are not attacking Islamic countries?

Do an of you ever listen to former Muslims who have converted to Christianity- explain what Islam is supposed to be doing in these days? They believe they are 'now' supposed to convert the entire world to Islam- I have heard many testimonies from formers- they claim they are taught to hate Jews & Christians. Period. Besides that though they believe the entire world is supposed to be converted to Islam- for Allah-

It has absolutely nothing to do with our attacks.
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Jazman
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Jazman »

Robert wrote: I am not saying everything western culture does it right, but there is a core respect for life that does drive it.
Maybe more recently, but I'm not sure history shows that. I'll retract if a credible historian says no, but I'd bet "christian" Western Civ has slaughtered as many or more than non-Western Civ has...
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appleman2006
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by appleman2006 »

Dan Z wrote:Quoted from the Dylan Roof thread:
appleman wrote:I simply do not understand the plain Mennonites that are openly protesting Trump's border positions at this point. Nor do I necessarily understand those that are very vocally supporting them for that matter.
Hmm...I didn't know there were any plain folks openly protesting Trump's border positions - I'm surprised - although I can appreciate their concerns. Let me share what is so concerning from my perspective Appleman, as a brother, since I suspect the climate up there north of the border is a bit different (pun intended :D ), and since I represent the position you cannot understand.

First, from where I sit, the reaction doesn't have to do with the government managing it's immigrant vetting. Everyone accepts that this is there job.

The reaction comes on the tail end of a lot of harsh campaign language about immigrants, and a lot of anger and fear and aggression being stoked in society. I'll admit that it is not totally unjustified - especially in the face of terrorism, incompatibility with some Islamic ideology, and some of the economic realities folks are facing.

Also, maybe those of us Mennonites who have lived and ministered overseas or in cross-cultural contexts or to refugees are especially sensitive to this, since we personally know people who are directly experiencing the growing anti-foreigner zeitgeist. We also know that this climate stokes a backlash oversees that makes it more difficult to do ministry.

So executive actions actions like closing the borders, building walls, etc. - while they seem somewhat minor if taken alone - feel like part of something insidious and much bigger that is growing down here...and elsewhere in the world. We may be wrong, but some of us see a trajectory that has shown itself before in history, and we are concerned for our neighbors and for what we see growing in people's hearts - enough to publicly say that we're concerned - even though our core instincts are to steer clear of the political fray if at all possible - and even if it puts us politically in league with people we normally don't find a lot of common ground with. And, apparently, enough to get at least a few of us joining with other faith communities and secular groups in publicly expressing our concern.

Not saying this to get you to agree...but to at least sew a bit of understanding. :hug: I certainly respect those whose conscience is not there (yet ;) ), or the majority of plain folks who, by principle, are not ready to enter the fray or express an opinion at this point.
Time will reveal a lot I assume. In the meantime we are called to love all.

On a completely unrelated note seeing the amount of people in your country that suddenly believe in open boarders perhaps there is hope that someday I actually could get a green card. :D Never thought it would happen.
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Valerie
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Re: Islamist Ideology & Its Threat

Post by Valerie »

Jazman wrote:
Robert wrote: I am not saying everything western culture does it right, but there is a core respect for life that does drive it.
Maybe more recently, but I'm not sure history shows that. I'll retract if a credible historian says no, but I'd bet "christian" Western Civ has slaughtered as many or more than non-Western Civ has...
It's baffling to me then, why SO many countries want to find refuge in the U.S. if we are such a terrible slaughtering people. You'd think if we had that reputation, we wouldn't have countless foreign countries seeking to live here- or maybe that doesn't matter to them- how did we become such a melting pot, and continue to be one? What is so attractive about living in the U.S. to so many? Why did Anabaptists seek refuge here if we didn't have a core respect for life? Makes no sense.
RECENTLY we do not have a core respect for life when you look at the abortion statistics.
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