Chicago

[Ken]

For the record, your picture is urban, not rural.

That is Cairo, IL, population 1,733 which meets the census definition of a rural census tract. It is half the size of say Millersburg OH. This is what it looks like from the air. One of the bleakest places I have ever driven through.

[Josh]

Cairo used to have a population of 15,000 and was an up and coming city. Now it is basically a ghost town. But thanks for making my argument for me of how bad urban areas can become.

[Josh]

And I'm just providing actual data to show how far first-hand observations can stray from reality.

When I spend time on the city, I don’t always spend my time with upper-class people in tony neighbourhoods.

Nor do you need to hang around with the rich to realize that city people are not more sickly and ill-nourished than rural folk. The statistics I cited were from all of Cook County not just tony upper class neighborhoods.

In fact it turns out that on average, city dwellers seem to live more morally upright lives as well. When we compare Chicago to Holmes County, which I think is the most heavily Anabaptist county in the country we find that the rates of binge drinking, alcoholism, smoking, sloth, and obesity are lower in Chicago than Holmes County. In fact the smoking rate in Chicago is half what it is in Holmes County. What is it about rural Holmes county that makes people smoke at nearly double the national average and double the rate for Chicago?

What county do you live in? Should we compare it as well?

Look, I'm not one to claim that Chicago or any other city is a perfect place. Clearly they are not. But the problems faced by cities are frankly universal human social problems faced by every corner of the country. There is just as much crime and addiction and social dysfunction in much of rural America as there is in cities. And a lot more closed businesses and decay as well.

So why the endless hatred of cities? And apparent glee every time a Starbucks or something closes in some city? I don't come here and start posts with "Oh look, another hospital closed in rural Ohio" What is going terribly wrong with society in rural Ohio? but I easily could. https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/hea ... 176238007/ or https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/26/us/h ... -ohio.html And a hospital in rural Ohio is far more meaningful than some Starbucks somewhere in Portland.

Holmes/Wayne Co. have excellent healthcare and hospital systems including maternity (which is what the first article is about) with options ranging from a hospital with a NICU to birth centres that could be run out of a hospital to special ones for Amish and other plain people, to a large variety of midwives to choose from that do home births.

As far as hospitals… have you ever heard of the Cleveland Clinic? They are providing serious competition to poorly run for profit hospitals, hence the closures of the crummier ones. No issues at all getting to them from a “rural” area (we have this thing called “cars”), although if I wanted to I could go to local hospitals 20 and 30 minutes away. A Clinic hospital is 35 minutes away.

[AndersonD]

OK, fair enough.

You say you "live in the surrounding debris field of Chicago"

Can we all bow our heads and thank our gracious Creator for living in a "land of milk and honey"?

Are we living in the land of milk and honey?

Idiomatically, yes.

[Ken]

When I spend time on the city, I don’t always spend my time with upper-class people in tony neighbourhoods.

Nor do you need to hang around with the rich to realize that city people are not more sickly and ill-nourished than rural folk. The statistics I cited were from all of Cook County not just tony upper class neighborhoods.

In fact it turns out that on average, city dwellers seem to live more morally upright lives as well. When we compare Chicago to Holmes County, which I think is the most heavily Anabaptist county in the country we find that the rates of binge drinking, alcoholism, smoking, sloth, and obesity are lower in Chicago than Holmes County. In fact the smoking rate in Chicago is half what it is in Holmes County. What is it about rural Holmes county that makes people smoke at nearly double the national average and double the rate for Chicago?

What county do you live in? Should we compare it as well?

Look, I'm not one to claim that Chicago or any other city is a perfect place. Clearly they are not. But the problems faced by cities are frankly universal human social problems faced by every corner of the country. There is just as much crime and addiction and social dysfunction in much of rural America as there is in cities. And a lot more closed businesses and decay as well.

So why the endless hatred of cities? And apparent glee every time a Starbucks or something closes in some city? I don't come here and start posts with "Oh look, another hospital closed in rural Ohio" What is going terribly wrong with society in rural Ohio? but I easily could. https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/hea ... 176238007/ or https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/26/us/h ... -ohio.html And a hospital in rural Ohio is far more meaningful than some Starbucks somewhere in Portland.

Holmes/Wayne Co. have excellent healthcare and hospital systems including maternity (which is what the first article is about) with options ranging from a hospital with a NICU to birth centres that could be run out of a hospital to special ones for Amish and other plain people, to a large variety of midwives to choose from that do home births.

As far as hospitals… have you ever heard of the Cleveland Clinic? They are providing serious competition to poorly run for profit hospitals, hence the closures of the crummier ones. No issues at all getting to them from a “rural” area (we have this thing called “cars”), although if I wanted to I could go to local hospitals 20 and 30 minutes away. A Clinic hospital is 35 minutes away.

One could ask if Holmes County has such good healthcare then why does it perform so poorly on every single public health metric that the CDC tracks?

The larger point I'm making, which applies cities in general and not just Chicago is that there are tremendous economic, social, and environmental efficiencies associated with cities. The exist for a reason and they are largely the engine of prosperity in every country around the world. And that has been the case since the time of Rome and Jerusalem and Babylon.

Economically speaking they are far more efficient whether you are a job seeker (you have far more opportunities) an employer (you have far more prospective employees to choose from) or a operate a specialty business (you have far more customers nearby). The efficiencies of cities are why it is called the Cleveland Clinic and not the Millersburg Clinic. And exactly why people drive long distances to cities for specialty healthcare.

Cities are more efficient environmentally. They produce less carbon on a per-capita basis because people drive less, have smaller houses to heat and cool, can do so more efficiently if they are larger buildings. And cities also preserve wild areas and wild habitats if people are more densely concentrated rather than spread across the countryside eating up forests and plains. For that matter they also preserve farmland for the same reason. And in a planet with a growing population both of those things are important concerns.

Cities also concentrate knowledge. There are reasons why tech startups happen in places like silicon valley and Seattle and not rural Mississippi. That is where concentrations of universities and skilled people are. And they also provide social opportunities to vast numbers of people who would not get them in rural areas. Immigrants from vast numbers of countries, people of different faiths and interests. They are much more likely to find common community in cities than rural areas.

Rural areas have their own lifestyle advantages, especially if you want to lead some sort of plain rural lifestyle. It is certainly easier to be completely self-sufficient, grow your own food, make your own clothes and shelter in rural areas. That seems to be an objective of some plain groups. But I am personally not convinced it is actually a Biblical objective. The early Christian church of Paul and those who followed was an urban one. Paul was not telling Christians to go off and form remote self-sufficient colonies with little or not connection to the outside world.

Even if you prefer rural life, and especially if you are say an Amish farmer or some such, you should be very happy that cities exist and hope that they are successful. And with a growing world population you should also hope that they are large and dense and not endlessly sprawling, which chews up the farmland in a giant mushrooming ring around every urban area.

It is fun to pick on Portland on this forum. But Oregon actually has strict land use laws that preserve farmland and farming opportunities outside the city beyond what are established urban growth boundaries. You can drive south from Portland and it is all urban suburbs until you hit Wilsonville which is a typical dense suburb like any other and then you cross the Willamette River and bam, instant farm land as far as the eye can see and not so much as a single subdivision or strip mall. You can see the same thing driving west. If Portland fails then the surrounding region becomes worse not better.

By contrast, start from Dallas and drive north on 75 and it is suburban sprawl nearly all the way to the Oklahoma border. There used to be farms but it has all been consumed by relentless suburban sprawl. Same thing happens when you drive between Austin and San Antonio. It is nearly all low density suburban sprawl. The farms are all nearly gone.

Bottom line? If you want healthy rural areas you also need healthy cities. We live in an interconnected world. So I really don't understand the point of the endless city bashing that happens here on this forum. We could engage in the same endless bashing of rural areas as well. You get that sort of thing on some liberal forums. People gawking with horror at the corrupt ignorant conservative goobers who live in rural America clutching to their guns and ivermectin. It is one of the easiest and pointless memes you find on lots of liberal forums. The whole "What's the matter with Kansas" thing. And you can find just as many horror stories told by escapees from rural life as you can about Chicago or San Francisco or wherever.

So if you see me pushing back here on the subject of Chicago or San Francisco or Portland that is why. We need those cities and we need them to work. And yes, there is plenty to criticize and plenty of easy targets in cities. But no more so than rural areas. The more interesting discussions are how do we make both cities and rural areas better than they are today. That is where the real challenges lie.

[temporal1]

Openly admitting I haven't read the entire thread...
but guessing it's another tired discussion of "city people = BAD" vs "US (country/suburban 'white') = GOOD! & definitely Better than THEM!" Why another round? What do some of you gain from that?

Ken:
So why the endless hatred of cities?

^^Off-topic. False tropes-cliches-accusations. Not welcome.

In 2017, i began this topic because of frequent reports of gun violence+fatalities in my nearby city of Chicago, which has direct and continual impact on my area+county. i was miserable thinking of the nameless thousands of grieving families+friends of victims, essentially next door. Were their loved ones even named in reports? - Or just reduced to statistics?

Years later, reports are crimes have increased many times over. That’s a problem. It’s spilling over throughout Illinois.
Interstate highways serve as conduits, bad political policies fix nothing, evidence is: expansion of crime!

Through youtube, i began to notice real men, conservative black men, stepping up to offer leadership in their communities,
i was encouraged and impressed. No dodging behind statistics, denying, bait+switch, ambulance chasers, race baiters, etc.

They were/are often Christians, motivated by Truth. Like Jesus, one by one, no organizing for political muscle.

^^In italics, this is the focus of this topic. With preference to Chicago.

These mind-numbing tropes+cliches show up elsewhere on this forum, by the same (partisan shills) over+over.
Not even bothering to read for content. Often reading, ignoring content, then responding with preferred content. [Hijacking.]

i know of no forum member who is in any way guilty of the said accusations, quite the opposite.

Take it elsewhere.

i’d prefer this 2017 topic be ignored rather than hijacked.

[temporal1]

Ken:
.. So if you see me pushing back here on the subject of Chicago or San Francisco or Portland that is why.

We need those cities and we need them to work.
And yes, there is plenty to criticize and plenty of easy targets in cities. But no more so than rural areas. The more interesting discussions are how do we make both cities and rural areas better than they are today. That is where the real challenges lie.

Nothing to push back on. No whataboutism needed. It’s not constructive.
Possibly the difference you sense is, rejection of lib politics for answers. Evidence is, in-our-faces, lib policies are exponentially worsening problems. There is no “we” in that. Rejection is needed.

For myself, to repeat, i’m encouraged by the largely not-politicized conservative black leaders DOING THE HEAVY LIFTING, in real time,in real life, IN SPITE OF politics.

In another thread: some CHICAGO examples

“Pastor Corey Brooks on the stand against post-60's Liberalism”
viewtopic.php?t=4577

In my earlier life, rural AND urban areas were thriving. i remember well. i grieve for young people who probably can’t imagine it.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Cairo used to have a population of 15,000 and was an up and coming city. Now it is basically a ghost town. But thanks for making my argument for me of how bad urban areas can become.

Been through Cairo recently. It IS essentially an abandoned city. I have never seen such a mess in the US. IIRC all of the industry has left. The retail sector then left. Only solution is bring on the bulldozers.



The difference between Cairo and Paducah/Cape Girdeau......party in power.

[temporal1]

Cairo used to have a population of 15,000 and was an up and coming city. Now it is basically a ghost town. But thanks for making my argument for me of how bad urban areas can become.

Been through Cairo recently. It IS essentially an abandoned city. I have never seen such a mess in the US. IIRC all of the industry has left. The retail sector then left. Only solution is bring on the bulldozers.



The difference between Cairo and Paducah/Cape Girdeau......party in power.

Thanks, JM, I appreciate the topic. New thread:

Cairo IL and downstate IL
viewtopic.php?t=6058

[RZehr]

There are actually crime statistics that one can use to compare various cities. For example, we can do a comparison of Chicago with the small rural town of Madras Oregon (population 7,800) where one of the frequent posters on this site lives and helped found a Menno church. And what do we find? https://www.bestplaces.net/crime/?city1 ... 2=54145250

Well, Chicago has a higher violent crime rate but a lower property crime rate than Madras. Both are above the national average. And I suspect if we talk to someone from Madras they would say "well, that's the bad side of town" which is the same thing anyone from Chicago would say too. And it is probably true. I drive through Madras on occasion on the way to see my daughter in Bend and there are indeed some ragged parts of town. https://www.madraspioneer.com/news/neig ... 028aa.html And it is probably the same exact story. Poverty, addiction, social dysfunction. These things know no boundaries. And the fact that Madras has a Republican mayor and Chicago has a Democratic mayor probably has little to do with the crime rates in either city.

And yet life goes on for those who choose to live in Madras as it does for those who live in Chicago.

There are indeed ragged parts of Madras. Madras is also the most racially diverse city in Oregon: https://www.homesnacks.com/most-diverse ... in-oregon/ According to https://www.bestplaces.net/people/city/oregon/madras Madras is merely 51% white. Compared with 71% white in Portland.

I happened to drive by that place in Madras. I would say "That house looks like it is in a pretty decent part of town". There was no garbage around. No feces anywhere in sight. No homeless camps. Seems like the someone took care of the problem. That troublemaker seems to have moved on out, having been arrested on 1/12/2023.
The government seems to have taken action, per your article that says:

"The new mayor of Madras and Deputy Chief of EMS Mike Lepin stated at the city council meeting “I’ve responded to this house on calls before. I know it’s frustrating, and I know we have a plan but it’s going to take time.”
The plan Lepin mentioned only really began taking shape in the last week after neighbors continued to voice concerns to the police, the city and the district attorney.

“We are working on responding in a new way,” said City Administrator Gus Burril. Burril, Madras Police Director Steve Bartol and Community Development Director Nick Snead recently went out to the property to take photos and are speaking with attorneys, including the district attorney’s office, to identify what they can do.

“We met as a team today to go over an action plan for the community,” said Burril during the January council meeting. “In the next couple weeks, we'll need to figure out what we need to do to get permission to step in. We can't go into details, but we need to go through that process. It’s outside of our authority, but we're going to ask for authority to step in.”

Madras Police arrested the homeowner on Jan. 12, and have tagged multiple vehicles for removal since then.

City Councilor Lamar Yoder, who is also a local realtor, stated at the meeting he also has heard from an investor that is interested in the property. He mentioned the possibility of the house selling at a city council meeting in September when neighbors first voiced concerns to the council. “I have an investor that was interested in that property,” said Yoder. “He came to me earlier this week on Monday and he said that he has an agreement with the owner of the property to purchase the property.”

Incidentally, Yoder is an ex-Mennonite, yes.

After selling on 1/27/2023 for $127,500, the house was resold for $299,900 on 3/20/2023 after an extensive refresh, and is now a really nice looking place. Nice yard, green grass, a sprinkler cheerfully watering the yard. Even a new camper onsite. Here are some pictures that look like they were take mid-face lift. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/475- ... 3998_zpid/

This story seems to actually be a story about an apparently Republican city government that actually did put their big boy pants on, and competently dealt with a problem. As opposed to doing the opposite.