Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

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Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby Ernie » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:32 am

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?
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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:44 am

Here's the graphic.

I don't know how Trump's business dealings affect this, I wish he would fully divest so we don't have to speculate about these things. I agree that this is at least bad optics.

But it's not just his business dealings - he's on a campaign, working up people's emotions, saying there's an emergency and telling them "I'm the only one who can save you". He has a political interest in polarizing people around this issue, solidifying his base, and concentrating power in the executive branch. In a democracy, checks and balances are important, facts are important, taking time to create policy in a careful and considered way is important.

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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby Wayne in Maine » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:33 am

This is a perfect example of what I'm puzzling about in Kingdom Christians and Left-wing politics (in fact those facebook posts and the ensuing discussion are some of what inspire my MennoNet post).

The suggestion is that Donald Trump chose to ban Muslims only from countries in which he has no financial interests and that there and never have been any threats from the 7 countries immigration from which has been temporarily stayed by the US.

The facts are much more complicated than this little picture represents. Among the facts are that the 7 countries were chosen by the Obama Administration and the fact that 5 of those countries have non-functional governments. US and other intelligence agencies have determined that ISIS intends to infiltrate the US and Europe by members posing as refugees from those countries. Documentation to authenticate the identity of those seeking refugee status (or even in the process) is unreliable due to the lack of functioning governments. This is an old problem with refugees - it is not unique to the current situation.

The picture also suggest that the greatest threat is from countries that do business with Trump while there is no threat from immigrants from the 7 countries under the restrictions. Again, the facts are more complicated. 0% fatal attacks in the US does not tell the whole truth about threats. Plots have been uncovered and attacks thwarted by people from some of those countries. There have been attacks (some fatal in Europe) by individual from these countries. The countries not under the restrictions (the ones it is suggested Trump exempted out of financial interests) are politically stable and to a greater degree cooperative with the US and Europe in vetting travelers from those countries to the US.

I would love to do more analysis of this as propaganda and how it is generated from a political philosophy rather than a thorough reasoned analysis of the facts, but I can't devote a lot of time to this debate.
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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby MaxPC » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:38 am

Wayne in Maine wrote:This is a perfect example of what I'm puzzling about in Kingdom Christians and Left-wing politics (in fact those facebook posts and the ensuing discussion are some of what inspire my MennoNet post).

The suggestion is that Donald Trump chose to ban Muslims only from countries in which he has no financial interests and that there and never have been any threats from the 7 countries immigration from which has been temporarily stayed by the US.

The facts are much more complicated than this little picture represents. Among the facts are that the 7 countries were chosen by the Obama Administration and the fact that 5 of those countries have non-functional governments. US and other intelligence agencies have determined that ISIS intends to infiltrate the US and Europe by members posing as refugees from those countries. Documentation to authenticate the identity of those seeking refugee status (or even in the process) is unreliable due to the lack of functioning governments. This is an old problem with refugees - it is not unique to the current situation.

The picture also suggest that the greatest threat is from countries that do business with Trump while there is no threat from immigrants from the 7 countries under the restrictions. Again, the facts are more complicated. 0% fatal attacks in the US does not tell the whole truth about threats. Plots have been uncovered and attacks thwarted by people from some of those countries. There have been attacks (some fatal in Europe) by individual from these countries. The countries not under the restrictions (the ones it is suggested Trump exempted out of financial interests) are politically stable and to a greater degree cooperative with the US and Europe in vetting travelers from those countries to the US.

I would love to do more analysis of this as propaganda and how it is generated from a political philosophy rather than a thorough reasoned analysis of the facts, but I can't devote a lot of time to this debate.

Well said, Wayne :up: :clap:
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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby Wayne in Maine » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:54 am

Bootstrap wrote:Here's the graphic.

I don't know how Trump's business dealings affect this, I wish he would fully divest so we don't have to speculate about these things. I agree that this is at least bad optics.

But it's not just his business dealings - he's on a campaign, working up people's emotions, saying there's an emergency and telling them "I'm the only one who can save you". He has a political interest in polarizing people around this issue, solidifying his base, and concentrating power in the executive branch. In a democracy, checks and balances are important, facts are important, taking time to create policy in a careful and considered way is important.


Or maybe he is just trying to do his job as president of the United States to protect the citizens of that country.
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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:57 am

Wayne in Maine wrote:The facts are much more complicated than this little picture represents. Among the facts are that the 7 countries were chosen by the Obama Administration and the fact that 5 of those countries have non-functional governments.


This is definitely true. This is why it takes at least 18 - 24 months to be screened, and few refugees ever make it here. That level of extreme vetting is important. But it is already in place.

Wayne in Maine wrote:US and other intelligence agencies have determined that ISIS intends to infiltrate the US and Europe by members posing as refugees from those countries.


As refugees? I'd like to understand this. A tourist visa or business visa is so much easier to get. Nobody else gets screened like a refugee. And as far as I can tell, this move was not motivated by US intelligence agencies. If you have reliable information that I don't, please share.

Wayne in Maine wrote:Documentation to authenticate the identity of those seeking refugee status (or even in the process) is unreliable due to the lack of functioning governments. This is an old problem with refugees - it is not unique to the current situation.


But you're implying that terrorists have been sneaking in through the refugee program? Can you provide any evidence for that claim?
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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:04 am

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:But it's not just his business dealings - he's on a campaign, working up people's emotions, saying there's an emergency and telling them "I'm the only one who can save you". He has a political interest in polarizing people around this issue, solidifying his base, and concentrating power in the executive branch. In a democracy, checks and balances are important, facts are important, taking time to create policy in a careful and considered way is important.


Or maybe he is just trying to do his job as president of the United States to protect the citizens of that country.


Was there a sudden and dramatic threat that required a sudden and dramatic move?

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greater dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."


We're already been told that we need a massive military buildup too. Why? I think it's important for a president to work with the rest of government, to explain himself, to build agreement and policy, not just make a lot of sudden and dramatic moves. If he doesn't do that, let's hope that he fails. Because if he succeeds at doing things this way, it will not be good for democracy.

The president is not supposed to be the king. He's just the president.
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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby Robert » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:34 am

Bootstrap wrote:Was there a sudden and dramatic threat that required a sudden and dramatic move?


An election.

New boss wants to do things differently. This was a big promise he made on the campaign trail. I am wondering if those opposed to him are making the same mistake they did on the campaign trail. Those who like Trump do not take him literally, but take him seriously. Those who do not like Trump take him literally but not seriously.

He plans on doing the things he said he was going to do. He will modify the way or what gets done, but he plans on doing what he said he was going to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_100_days_of_Donald_Trump's_presidency

I am not saying I agree or want all this. I did not agree or want all the things Obama did. Get over it and move on with life.
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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby MaxPC » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:35 am

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Or maybe he is just trying to do his job as president of the United States to protect the citizens of that country.

Agreed. For myself, I like to take the objective "wait, pray and see" approach to the motivations behind current events. All things are known to God. I prefer to avoid "drinking" from the propaganda "Kool aid" of various political parties and media as to the motivations.

I come from the school of "what can I do right now as a Christian". The focus on best viable solutions for the refugees is far more productive than the political blame game. For myself, who no longer have the means to share my home, I choose to pray for the refugees as prayer is powerful, especially when groups of us pray (where two or three...). God listens to prayer and touches the hearts of men. God continues to perfect all things in His creation.
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Re: Why Did Trump Pick the 7 countries that he did?

Postby Bootstrap » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:03 am

MaxPC wrote:I come from the school of "what can I do right now as a Christian". The focus on best viable solutions for the refugees is far more productive than the political blame game. For myself, who no longer have the means to share my home, I choose to pray for the refugees as prayer is powerful, especially when groups of us pray (where two or three...). God listens to prayer and touches the hearts of men. God continues to perfect all things in His creation.


We can agree on all of that.

For me, time spent helping two refugee families is where the rubber meets the road.
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